hold buttons works randomly

[SPN]

I wonder if anyone know where to look when the hold buttons and light work randomly and not as they should and not work only after payout..


 

[mark the spark]

what machine ?
pictures

[SPN]

It’s a Bally reel deal 816

[HugoBoss]

Hi if you have a payout the buttons are not ment to work until after the next pull

[wolftalk]

paperwork for the 816 is now on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/


the draw relay will power allowing a hold after the spin is kicked off unless the "hold bar switch" is open.  The draw relay loses power if you get a payout.


dunno what the hold bar switch is, but I can look it up if nobody else can say.  I assume the rule is you can hold unless:
- you got paid OR
- you held on the last spin

[SPN]

Yes you can’t hold if you just won or just hold..


Schematic is not my speciality I’m more in to LEGO if you know what I mean 🙈😂


I thinking maybe it’s a bad contact or something but I’m not sure where to look


Does it help if I posts some picture of some special parts ?

[Amechanic]

Pictures are always helpful.. They can say more then word do at times.. I've only worked on a could of these hold type slots, so I'm far from an expert.. Do you have a problem with all the buttons when this happens, or just a certain one? 

[wolftalk]

if the hold feature light is not on AND you can't hold, then the draw relay is probably not powered.


if the hold feature light flash on/off, then either a switch on:
- the draw relay with a red/green and yellow/brown wires on the blades needs cleaning/adjusting, or
- a "closed at 0/reset" switch on the payout counter needs checking.  It has the same yellow brown wire on one blade and a brown/red wire on the other.  As the name implies, it should be closed when the payout counter is reset. 


if you never saw the hold light flash, then you'd want to check reel mech switch B-2 (red/green wire to red/yellow) and the hold bar switch (same red/yellow to brown/red wire).


if you want to shotgun, check all four of those switches (as soon as you find them :-))


the key thing you want to know is whether the draw relay is powering and letting go, or it's not powering at all.


in the below schem, the lamp is the yellow path, getting the draw relay to power is the blue path, and keeping it powered so you can push buttons is the orange path.

[SPN]

Here’s some pictures of the machine if it helps


Thanks 😊

[wolftalk]

nice pics!


the hold bar switches have blue arrow pointing to them.  Clean the contacts on them and then push in the hold coil plunger (orange arrow). 


I assume that shifts the hold bar that runs under all three reels and changes the state of the hold bar switches.  Make sure the contacts touch, then the blade "overtravels" a bit.  When the moving blade touches the stationary one and keeps moving, the contact surfaces slide across each other a little and you get a self-cleaning affect....kinda like snapping your fingers.


contacts can have a dry black carbon coating on them ... that's harmless.  If the black coating looks shiny/oily like the switch with the white/blue wire on it, it probably won't be reliable.


unless a contact is deeply pitted and arcing, don't file it.  Clean it with a solvent and something slightly abrasive like a green scrub pad.  An uncoated business card may work.  You just want to get the crud off, not remove metal.


looks like from your other pic you can get to the draw relay.  Look at it when the hold light should be on see if it's powered (armature pulled down on coil top).  If it isn't, push the armature down yourself and see if it stays.  That'll tell you if the problem is the hold circuit keeping it powered or the other circuit that should power it initially. 

[SPN]

Now I have tried to clean the contacts and checked the switches and they all looks ok but it still don’t work correctly..


If I try to play 10 coins the hold light and function works randomly around 50% and the light and button are always works together and never alone, I think it can be the hold coil that is weak maybe?


Thanks for your help 😊

[wolftalk]

when the draw relay is powered, the light and buttons work.


when the draw relay is not powered, neither work.


you still need to determine if the draw relay is :


1] not powering (you won't see the hold light flash). 


check the reel mech B-2 switch.  It's on the left side of the reel mech center-top.  There's a switch with a red/green wire on the center blade that connects to a red/yellow wire when the reel spin is kicked off.  That switch needs to close to cause the draw relay to power.


2] powering but not holding (you MAY see the hold light flash)


if the already checked/cleaned the draw relay switches, the only thing left is the payout counter zero switch and the plug connections between the hopper and the reel mech.


I'd push the draw relay armature plate down with my finger and see if it stays.  If it does, wiggle the hopper unit and reel mech to see if it unpowers (plugs flaky).  If not, give the hopper a whack and see if it unpowers (zero switch needs clean/adjust).

[SPN]

I have checked all the wiring and switches, the zero switch and the plugs without any results..


But I figure out that it goes like this , the light and hold works 4 times, than 3 times the hold don’t work, then 4 times it works again, over and over again, maybe it’s meant to be like that?

[wolftalk]

the schematic I have is for the base 816 model and there's nothing on it that would sequence enabling hold.   


my incomplete paperwork says there's an A,B,C,D,S, and SD model that all have the same variations of payback percentage, so none of them would have extra circuits to change hold.

what is the full model number on the plate on the cabinet below the handle?


did you try pushing down on the draw relay armature plate when you think hold should be enabled?  If so, what happened?


got pictures of inside your cabinet?

[SPN]

I also think it’s kind of strange and maybe there’s something wrong that makes it work like this, that the hold button never works more than 4 times in a row..

[SPN]

Yes I did and the draw relay plate always works and stays down when I push it down when it doesn’t stays down as it should..

[wolftalk]

ok, you have the base model 816.


hopefully some of the other guys can nail this down.


since the relay is holding, the implication is that it's not getting powered. 


if I recall (start worrying), the reel mech B switches are moved by a linkage.  The amount the linkage moves MAY vary as part of the game randomization due to the toothed cog changing the effective length of the linkage. 


I'd yank the reel mech and operate it outside the cabinet.  Watch the B switches and see if B-2 - the switch with the red/green wire on the center blade - is not making to the red/yellow wire sometimes. 


also watch the hold bar switches and see if there's something mechanical opening the one with the red/yellow and brown/red wires in the sequence you are seeing....I don't see anything on the exploded parts diagrams tho.

[SPN]

Im not sure If this is what you meant but you made me go all over it, so finally it was a mechanical thing that made it change the hold randomly, and you see on the picture I used a rope to hold up the thing that made it change randomly and now work correct every time..


 

[Amechanic]

You could just remove the e-clip, then remove the whole lever.

[wolftalk]

below is your picture marked up.  If you disable the ratchet [A], you are just affecting the timing randomization of the spin.

tmi below:
--------------
the toothed ratchet [A] gets shoved by your tied-up arm one tooth per pull.  As it turns, it is changing the effective length of the black linkage , which changes when the reels stop spinning.

what you care about is the contacts on the switch blades marked [B-2] in purple.   They need to be touching when the A-1 switch is closed.  A-1 is one of the switches in the purple circle ... one blade will have the other end of the red/green 14-1 wire that going to the [B-2] switch.

you can spin the toothed ratchet with your finger and see it kinda affect the link arm , but to see what it's actually doing is difficult to see.

you can spin the reels by shoving in the linkage going into the cylinder on the other side of the mech while holding the fan blade (or quickly grab the fan after the kick if you need both hands to shove the bar into the cylinder). 

with the fan stopped right after the kick, the B stack should be lifted on the bump and switch B-2 connecting the top two blades.  If you let go of the fan intermittently you can watch how the link arm slides toward the front and the reels lock.

you can also just push the black link arm  towards the back of the mech and watch how the bump on it lifts up the  stack B switches.  Make sure no matter what position the [A] ratchet is spun to, the [B-2] switch connects the top two blade contacts well.

by "well", I mean the moving blade (with the white plastic cylinder and red/green wire attached) pushes up the upper blade after the contacts touch.  If necessary, make the gap between the top two blades smaller by bending the top blade down ... just make sure the contacts between the two top blades are open when link arm bump is no longer lifting the stack.  The blade with the white cylinder is really a middle blade.  It should contact the blade above or below it when the stack is up or down.

note there's normally a gap between the linkage arm and the U-shape lifter that is on the bottom of the B stack when the link arm is all the way forward.

it sounds like depending on ratchet position [A], the B-2 switch is not making the two top contacts during the spin, so your draw relay is not getting powered.