809-ZZB in freeplay no pay

[Phan000]

I picked up an 809 yesterday in freeplay mode.  Bally Model plate states-  809-ZZB,  MT- 17160.  It also has an IGT plate which seems odd?






The lockout for the handle does not seem to reset, but the solenoid looks pretty clean.





Also, the stepper does not reset automatically after a game, though it does if manually reset.





Additionally, the insert coin light turns off when 5 coins are accepted, but the coin accepted light stays off.













Any thoughts on what is my first step to get this machine operating properly?


Thanks!

[wolftalk]

Si Redd had Bally Distributing in Reno then later went on to found IGT.  I'd guess the game was taken in on trade by IGT and they added their serial/tracking plate.

the paperwork for the game is on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ - if you're a schematic reading guy, that should help solve some of your problems.  If you aren't familiar with the schem, yell and someone will help out with more info.


the bally 400 manual on the above site has exploded parts diagrams and other info for the 809

the handle release relay is missing the armature plate + spring and I'd guess some of the switches are misadjusted.   Once you source the missing piece(s), check the switches to make sure they do something sensible when the armature is reset and tripped.

the odds unit will reset correctly once the handle switches work.

the armature part number is A-637-5A and the spring is SP-100-38B.  Maybe someone with a parts pile has the entire assembly or the parts suppliers should have the bits.  Looks like Barry on ebay has a listing for the armature, but ask for the spring also.

great pics btw ... nicely lit  and hi-res!  Post as many of the insides of the game as you like.

[Phan000]

Thanks for the suggestions.  I was able
To source the armature, but not the spring. 


Is there perhaps a generic equivalent, or a pinball part?


Also,  if someone has a photo of how it is suppose to look when installed,  it would be greatly appreciated!

[wolftalk]

below pic is from a 929, so switches are different ... and the blades shouldn't be kinked.  I'll have to fix that.


the purple arrow is pointing to the armature mounting bracket you have visible in your pic.  Two bracket holes for the pins on the armature end, one hole for the spring.


the spring strength isn't critical, so yup, a spring from a pinball relay will work fine.  Ideally one from a trip relay.    If you don't have one, pm me your address and I'll mail you something that'll work.

[Phan000]

I installed the armature plate and spring.












Coins register when deposited, however the stepper unit does not advance, and multiple coins blow the fuse.  A 5 amp was installed in the left, not sure if this is enough?


The lock pawl does not release after coins are accepted, but when manually moved, the game plays and pays out wins.


The handle release coin seems to be energized, and buzzes when pressed against.


Any thoughts on my next step?  Clearly there are some issues in the stepper, but does this affect the initial handle release? 

Thanks!

[wolftalk]

the fuse with the white/blue and black wires is 5A.  The other two are 8A.


the stepper unit in your first post is the count unit.  The odds unit is the other one.  Both have at least one "open at zero" switch poking out over the ratchet near the step-up coil switch.  The switch stack is operated by a white plastic peg sticking out of the white plastic ratchet.


in your pic, the count unit is reset and the peg is holding the switch open.  Make sure the switch closes when the unit is stepped up once.  If the switch is open, the reset coil won't fire because it doesn't need to. 


on the odds unit, there's at least two switches on the "open at zero" stack that open when the odds unit is reset.


if unsure, post pics of the ratchet side of the odds unit at reset and step 1, and also the wiper side at reset.

[wolftalk]

wrt the handle release, the circuit is below.


the yellow path is what you need active to trip the handle release.  The only switch that should
be open in the circuit when the game is over is the coin relay switch.


the blue path shows how the coin relay gets powered to close the switch


the orange path thru the resistor is a precharge circuit that keeps the handle release coil partially powered so it trips quickly when the coin switch causes the coin relay to power.  That may be why you feel the coil is active.


assuming the handle release coil is good, one of the switches along the yellow path is open or cruddy enough to stop the handle release coil from powering.  A meter or a jumper wire will help find it.

[DavidLee]

So the first coin works as should.
The second coin blows the fuse correct?


Drop the first coin as usual, manually step the 2nd coin.
Then normally insert the 3rd coin.
Post the results.

[Phan000]

I've not had success finding any broken wires or switches.  Fuse is not blowing with any consistency.


I cleaned and lubed the white ratchets and the wiper sides. 


As of now, coins register but reset coil does not release the handle, though I do think it is functioning.  when I push on the armature, the coil vibrates and buzzes. I am considering replacing this coil just to be sure.

How can I use a jumper wire to help determine the problem?  I have a voltage meter as well.


When coins are deposited, the only action in the upper unit is the odds coil moving the armature. 


Multiple coins make the lights change from 1 -5, but only if the plunger is manually reset after games.  otherwise, the stepper unit is stuck on 5 coins.

[slcjeeper]

Here's a garage fix and something to check for and try that doesn't take any meters. I'm going to describe it in simple terms, so please don't take offense. On the handle release coil after a coin is deposited,  I'm guessing the coil is not pulling up the metal plate that unlocks the handle?  Does that flat metal plate next to the coil have a thin metal band around it? If it does, try this: after a credit has been given to the machine, lift up on that plate and see if it sticks to the coil. If it does, your coil is working. Put a small washer between the coil and it's mounting plate. This will reduce the gap between the coil and the metal plate. Try another credit and see if it works. Now, if the band is missing from that plate, replace that band.

[DavidLee]

When the coin switch is depressed the the coin relay latch is tripped.
This sets up another circuit to the handle release.
It is activated when the coin switch returns back up.


So the first coin works, but the second doesn’t?
Take a good look at the Coin Relay Switch.

[Phan000]

Here's a garage fix and something to check for and try that doesn't take any meters. I'm going to describe it in simple terms, so please don't take offense. On the handle release coil after a coin is deposited,  I'm guessing the coil is not pulling up the metal plate that unlocks the handle?  Does that flat metal plate next to the coil have a thin metal band around it? If it does, try this: after a credit has been given to the machine, lift up on that plate and see if it sticks to the coil. If it does, your coil is working. Put a small washer between the coil and it's mounting plate. This will reduce the gap between the coil and the metal plate. Try another credit and see if it works. Now, if the band is missing from that plate, replace that band.

The coil does have a washer.  The metal armature plate does not stick to the bottom of the coil after a coin is inserted, it buzzes and vibrates. 


Not sue if this means it's not working, or is a symptom of a switch not tripping the coil properly?

[DavidLee]

Since this was messed with prior.
Check the related switches to the handle release coil.


Possibly one or two are not opening or closing when they should.

[wolftalk]

How can I use a jumper wire to help determine the problem?  I have a voltage meter as well.

stick one end of a jumper on wire 30, other end on wire 83-1, 51-1 or 52-1. The handle release coil should power.


if you aren't familiar with the wire id's and colors, see old reno's "Use the bally color code" how-to guide in the sticky topics at the top of the forum listings.


wire 52-1 is the white/blue wire on the handle release coil, so jumping that to wire 30 is the most direct test of the coil.  Convenient place to attach to yellow wire 30 is the coin switch or GI lamps.


also note the handle release armature that you just replaced does not need to stay up against the coil.  Once the coil powers and the armature lifts out of the locking cam notch, the long metal arm flops down and the locking cam rotates enough that the armature is irrelevant.  The handle can be pulled even with the game power off.

[wolftalk]

wrt the odds unit not resetting, make sure the two switches circled in red are closed when the odds unit is not reset ... especially the switch that has a blade with a blue/red wire on it.


if you step up the odds unit at least once then push down the odds reset relay armature onto the coil top, the odds unit should reset.


if your relays lost their labels, the odds reset relay has orange and blue/red wires on the coil terminals.

[wolftalk]

I think if you have a F-31-2100 handle release coil - at least that version of it -  you do not use a washer between the coil and the frame.


if you have an E-184-224 coil then a brass washer was used.   


the washer isn't for armature spacing, it was for reducing magnetism, and the F-31-2100 coil has it built-in (or the core pokes above the surface plastic of the coil enough to create a space and diminish the effect).


with your fat washer and the core poking up on the F-31-2100, your armature may be close enough to the coil when the handle lock is release to vibrate due to the small constant current in the coil that the resistor is providing.


or put another way, my 929 has a F-31-2100 coil and no washer.  Works fine, so it's worth trying to see if your buzzing goes away.  My machine has the washer on top directly beneath the screw ... handy if you put in a coil that needs the washer I guess, but I dunno who put the washer there.


there may have been coils with the same part number that originally needed the washer, but later versions of the coil didn't.  That's true of some coils used in pinball machines ... many of which are the same as used in the slots.

[Phan000]

How can I use a jumper wire to help determine the problem?  I have a voltage meter as well.

stick one end of a jumper on wire 30, other end on wire 83-1, 51-1 or 52-1. The handle release coil should power.


if you aren't familiar with the wire id's and colors, see old reno's "Use the bally color code" how-to guide in the sticky topics at the top of the forum listings.


wire 52-1 is the white/blue wire on the handle release coil, so jumping that to wire 30 is the most direct test of the coil.  Convenient place to attach to yellow wire 30 is the coin switch or GI lamps.


also note the handle release armature that you just replaced does not need to stay up against the coil.  Once the coil powers and the armature lifts out of the locking cam notch, the long metal arm flops down and the locking cam rotates enough that the armature is irrelevant.  The handle can be pulled even with the game power off.

Using a jumper, the handle release coil works perfectly, and grabs the armature plate.


It's still not doing anything after a coin is deposited however.    The only action is up top.  The  stepper unit will advance if the plunger is manually reset, and the odds coil clicks. 


I did notice a blue spark near the beau plug when re-inserting the hopper.  It seems to overpay, but otherwise is working well. 

[DavidLee]

The handle release switch stack is not in a very accessible area.
Thus making it hard to work on.


Assuming the handle releases on the first coin, but nothing happens after.


Best to check continuity on the lowest set of contacts when the release lever is down.
Also the A and C switch contacts should be checked.

[wolftalk]

I think he means the handle release relay is still not powering when coining the game, but jumpering directly to the coil works, so the coil is good.


just to make sure ... both the coin relay on the lower left side of the reel mech and the handle release relay are trip relays.  They briefly power to change the state of the switch stacks and release the handle, but they don't stay powered.


once you've pulled the handle and spun the reels, the coin relay and the handle release relay are physically reset and waiting for another power pulse to trip them again.  That pulse comes from the coin switch - it trips the coin relay, and a switch on the coin relay in turn trips the handle release relay.


a way to find why the handle release isn't tripping is:


1] if necessary, spun reels so trip relays are reset


2] deposit a coin.  Either watch the coin relay to see if it trips, or pull out the reel mech far enough to verify it did.  If it didn't, stop.  That's your problem.


3] if handle release didn't trip, turn off power and pull out the reel mech partway.  Put a jumper wire from wire 30 to any point along the yellow path in the schematic above that's on the reel mech, put the reel mech back in and turn on the power.  Wire 83-1 or 25-1 on the coin relay switches are a good place to start.


if the handle release trips, manually reset it and move the jumper wire "up" the circuit until you find the place where it stops working.  That will be your problem spot.  Note the schem does not show plug connections.


some things you need to know:


- reel mech A switches are on vertical stack on left side of the reel unit nearest the back
- reel mech C switches are vertical stack to the right of the A switches
- coin relay is below the A and C switches
- dashpot switch is on the right side of the reel mech near the back of the air cylinder
- payout relay is under the hopper


as david suggested, continuity can also be used, but you need to be a bit more careful with isolating the circuits to not be getting continuity thru some roundabout path thru other coils/lamps/transformer windings.   In addition, continuity can be there but the circuit can't pass the needed current to power the coils due to high resistances, so measuring resistance on ohms is better than a go/no-go continuity test.


in this case, if you could yank the reel mech and use the ohmeter function on your meter, put one probe on wire 57-1 on the reel beau plugs and the other probe plug wire 83-1.  With the coin relay reset you should get infinite ohms, and with the coin relay tripped almost zero ohms.


the plug chart on the schematic will help locate those two wires.

[DavidLee]

If coin one doesn’t register, jump the coin in switch on both sides.
Off hand can remember which terminal unlatches the coin relay.
Of course the opposite terminal should activate the handle release.
If nothing happens first coin, the next logical switch is the coin relay.
This is the first set of switches that sets the machine up to play.


Also check switches A and C, particularly the closed contacts for continuity.
It doesn’t happen often, but a closed switch will loose continuity.
This could be from dirt, grease, debris etc.
Especially the horizontal switches.