Zero switch

[tuna]

Why does this zero switch have two sets of contacts?  Its on a Bally 952, it will coin up on coins 2-5, but not pay on them.

[wolftalk]

one of the switches is open-at-zero (should be orange/black and black/white wires), the other is closed-at-zero.


open-at-zero just prevents the reset coil from powering if the unit is already reset.  Almost all the models have this switch.


the closed-at-zero switch was used on hold-and-draw games and I don't see it on a couple of 952 schems I have.   What wire colors are on the switch?  If they are black and orange/red, it's possible the switch is being used in the payout multiplying circuit in place of a "payout counter reset pawl" switch.


payout multiplication on the 952 is different from most multiplier machines.  The payout is done by resetting the payout counter and paying again.  The odds follower unit steps each time and is what stops this "recycling the payout" when it's been done N-1 times, where N=number of coins played.


do you have a schematic and comfortable reading it?  If so, you care about the circuit that is powering the safety relay thru the odds unit disc and odds follower unit disc. 


if you don't have a schem, what is the full model number off the plate below the handle, and as a quick sanity check, does the safety relay power if you manually close the reset relay after a game cycle is over?  i.e.:
- play a 2+ coin game that does not win
- push down the reset relay armature plate.  It should stay down by itself - briefly if all is well
- the safety relay should power, the odds follower unit steps, and the reset relay will release.

if you play a 2+ coin game that does win, look and see if the reset relay is held powered after the first payout is done.  if it is, the problem is why the safety relay is not powering.

[tuna]

I have a 952A schematic, but the machine is a 952ZE.  If I play a 2+ coin game the reset relay will not power on, If I move the relay it stays powered on until I Move it back. 
The Safety relay never powers no matter if its a single coin play or 2+ coin game, doesn't matter if its a winner or non winner.




The zero switch is set correct with the gray/brown, gray/ orange is reset closed, the orange/black, black / white open.

[wolftalk]

the 952ZE was for the California Hotel.  Uses the same reel tapes, reel index discs, payout counter and wiper wiring as the 952A.  There may be no difference besides the belly glass.


there's two versions of the machine.  If your middle index disc has P-484-1234, you have the 86.475% payback game.  If your middle disc is P-484-1236, you have 80.925% payback.  The higher payback has two double-bar symbols on the middle reel, the cheapskate version has only one and an extra plum.


any idea where the closed-at-zero replay counter switch grey wires are going?  The don't look like they are going off hopper if the schem matches your game.


got a voltmeter? 


there's one more ambiguity ... in order for the reset relay to power, you need to play 2+ coins and have a winner.  The schematic at E-13 says the "payout counter reset pawl" switch is normally open.  The bally 2400 manual says the reset pawl switch(es) are normally closed....when is "normally"?  Take a look at the reset pawl on the ratchet side of the replay counter and see when the switch is connecting the black wire to the orange/red one.


in any case, the sequence is supposed to be:


1] play 2+ coins so the odds unit is stepped up and connecting a circuit thru the odds follower unit once the handle release relay is reset.
2] if you win, the payout relays powers and if no jackpot lockup, the reset relay should power and hold itself powered
3] payout completes and the payout relay loses power
4] the safety relay powers, which causes the replay counter to reset, the odds follower unit steps, and the game starts paying again.
5] the reset relay loses power


if you played 2 coins, nothing else happens.  If you played more than 2 coins, the above repeats until the odds follower unit is no longer connecting the circuit.


when you manually closed the reset relay with 2+ coins played, the safety relay should have powered.  Something in the safety relay circuit isn't working.  You should be able to:


1] insert 2+ coins and pull handle
2] manually close the reset relay after reels stop

the safety relay should power.  If it doesn't, use the voltmeter with one probe on wire 70 and the other on wire 38-5 on the reset relay switch.  If you see 50VAC, then the diode, capacitor, or safety relay is bad....or there's a busted wire/bad connection along the way.   If the cap has a bulging end, it's probably bad.

you can also jumper wire 30 directly to wire 38-5 and see if the safety relay powers. 

[tuna]

It is the higher payout with 2 double-bar symbols on the 2nd reel.



The gray/brown, gray/orange wires from the zero switch is running to the regular Jackpot relay.  If im reading the schematic correctly the Jackpot relay is in the Safety relay circuit.  The Jackpot relay is never going to pull in as I found the 41 wire cut in the bottom handle side of the cabinet.  I having a hard time trying to figure out where it goes.


The orange/black, from the zero switch is running to the Safety relay, that would be resetting the zero switch for each coin 2+ played paying out?

the safety relay should power.  If it doesn't, use the voltmeter with one probe on wire 70 and the other on wire 38-5 on the reset relay switch.  If you see 50VAC, then the diode, capacitor, or safety relay is bad....or there's a busted wire/bad connection along the way.   If the cap has a bulging end, it's probably bad.

you can also jumper wire 30 directly to wire 38-5 and see if the safety relay powers.

[size=0px]


On the fluke it showed .002 VAC when I manually operated the safety relay.


I remembered my 1034 Lucky 7's also uses the cam follower, I was able the watch the Rest relay fire followed by the Safety relay for each 2+ coin played paying out. As you had described. [/size][/color]

[wolftalk]

got a picture of the zero switch and also where the gray wires are going? 


the orange/black wire on one of the zero switch blades is 78-1, and it does go to a safety relay switch blade and it is part of the circuit to reset the payout counter for the 2+ pays, but it's not your problem.

the jackpot lockup relay switch in the circuit should be closed, so your disabled jackpot lockup relay is a separate issue and won't affect the 2+ payout.


getting zero volts is a problem.  To sanity check, below is a highlighted circuit that you care about.  To check, play 2+ coins and yank the handle ... you want to be at game over.



for probing this problem, you always want one meter probe on the orange highlighted wire 70 ... that's the 50V power. 


the other meter probe you can poke places along the green and yellow highlighted path.  I assume green is good or the game wouldn't pay, so I'd start with yellow and probably poke on the odds unit or odds follower unit wire lugs.  The odds unit diagram is below.  If you stick the meter probe on wire 90 there and other probe on wire 70 (on the unit step-up up coil is handy), you should see 50VAC.


the "lowest" you can get in the circuit is the grey/white wire 95-3 on a reset relay switch.  To go lower, you need to manually close the reset relay and then you can poke wire 38-5 (purple highlight).  You're looking for where the 50V disappears.


if you move to the pink highlight, you'll need to change the meter to measure DC and expect a value somewhere around 18V.

[tuna]

Zero switch 97, 96 wires are running to the top and bottom JP relay.

[tuna]

got a picture of the zero switch and also where the gray wires are going? 


the orange/black wire on one of the zero switch blades is 78-1, and it does go to a safety relay switch blade and it is part of the circuit to reset the payout counter for the 2+ pays, but it's not your problem.

the jackpot lockup relay switch in the circuit should be closed, so your disabled jackpot lockup relay is a separate issue and won't affect the 2+ payout.


getting zero volts is a problem.  To sanity check, below is a highlighted circuit that you care about.  To check, play 2+ coins and yank the handle ... you want to be at game over.



for probing this problem, you always want one meter probe on the orange highlighted wire 70 ... that's the 50V power. 



the other meter probe you can poke places along the green and yellow highlighted path.  I assume green is good or the game wouldn't pay, so I'd start with yellow and probably poke on the odds unit or odds follower unit wire lugs.  The odds unit diagram is below.  If you stick the meter probe on wire 90 there and other probe on wire 70 (on the unit step-up up coil is handy), you should see 50VAC.


Both 30 wires on odds unit 53.2vac, no 30 wire on odds follower.
70 wire to 90 wire was 52.7vac


the "lowest" you can get in the circuit is the grey/white wire 95-3 on a reset relay switch.  To go lower, you need to manually close the reset relay and then you can poke wire 38-5 (purple highlight).  You're looking for where the 50V disappears.


95-3 wire was 18.1vac
38-5 wire was 0 vac or dc open or closed at the safety switch, but would advance the odds follower. 




I think I may have found my problem, I have no Continuity between the Reset relay and the Safety relay.  As you can see in the picture the green wire has been spliced between the 38-5 wire and the Safety relay.  It has Continuity from the Reset relay to the splice.  Is it ok to remove the splice, has some black plastic thing as part of the wire?





if you move to the pink highlight, you'll need to change the meter to measure DC and expect a value somewhere around 18V.

[wolftalk]

Zero switch 97, 96 wires are running to the top and bottom JP relay.

none of the 952 schems I have include that switch.  All it would do is cause both the upper and lower jackpot reels to reset to x00.00 when you turn the reset key IF the payout counter is reset.


does the game pays some coins when you get super jackpot so normally only one jackpot would clear using the key?

[wolftalk]

short version using pic below.


looks like the wire the blue line is on is solid yellow wire 30.  Jumper it to where the diode connects to wire 38-5.  Safety relay should power.


if you don't have a jumper or prefer a meter, connect probes to wires 70 and 38-5 (orange and yellow arrows).  Play 2+ coins, spin reels and manually close the reset relay.  If you don't see 50VAC, your problem is "up" the circuit on the schem.  If you do have 50V, the diode, coil or capacitor is bad.

[tuna]

short version using pic below.


looks like the wire the blue line is on is solid yellow wire 30.  Jumper it to where the diode connects to wire 38-5.  Safety relay should power.





I jumped it from the 30 wire to the 38-5 splice and the Safety relay powered.  Then tried playing 2+ coins and still will only pay as if one coin played.   I'm at my whit's end with this thing.  But I Greatly appreciate all your help!!!  I just don't know what I am missing? 
if you don't have a jumper or prefer a meter, connect probes to wires 70 and 38-5 (orange and yellow arrows).  Play 2+ coins, spin reels and manually close the reset relay.  If you don't see 50VAC, your problem is "up" the circuit on the schem.  If you do have 50V, the diode, coil or capacitor is bad.

[wolftalk]

referring to the picture below, the blue line is what you just did.  You jumpered from wire 30 to the diode.


now leave one end of the jumper on wire 30 and move the other end up the circuit. 


1] find the reset relay and jumper 30 to the grey/white wire 95-3 (grey arrow).  Nothing should happen until you manually close the reset relay, then the safety relay should power.


2] if that works, move jumper up to brown/white wire 65-5 on jackpot lockup relay and close the reset relay.  Keep going until you find the place that doesn't work.  You'll eventually need to step up the odds unit and make sure the odds follower unit is reset so those connections happen.


do you know how the numbers on the schematic map to wire colors using the chart on the schem?  If not, figuring that out is what's needed :-)

[tuna]

find the reset relay and jumper 30 to the grey/white wire 95-3 (grey arrow).  Nothing should happen until you manually close the reset relay, then the safety relay should power.

Safety relay powered on , when 95-3 jumped manually closed.





if that works, move jumper up to brown/white wire 65-5 on jackpot lockup relay and close the reset relay.  Keep going until you find the place that doesn't work.  You'll eventually need to step up the odds unit and make sure the odds follower unit is reset so those connections happen.






65-5 wire on the schematic showed Pay out relay, when 65-5 jumped and manually closed safety relay powered.

JP Lock UP relay jumped wire 18, red/black and manually closed gives me a run away hopper.

[wolftalk]

65-5 wire on the schematic showed Pay out relay, when 65-5 jumped and manually closed safety relay powered.

JP Lock UP relay jumped wire 18, red/black and manually closed gives me a run away hopper.

assuming your game has a hopper mixer relay, then at some positions of reel 1 that are blank on the payline, whenever the safety relay is powered the hopper motor will turn on to mix up the coins.


if I read your post correctly, jumpering wire 30 to wire 18 and manually closing the reset relay DOES turn on the safety relay.  If that's right, then the only thing left (probably) is the:
- odds unit wipers
- odds follower unit wipers
- plug connection from the insert board in the top of the game to the cabinet.


below is the plug chart for the 952-ZH and a diagram of the insert board.   Your game is probably the same stuff, but verify the wire colors.


what I'd do is with the game power off:


1] remove the top glass and flip down the insert panel


2] manually reset the odds unit (right/7 on diagram) and odds follower unit (middle/6) by pushing in the solenoid reset plungers.  The reset plungers are the ones perpendicular to the wood.  The unit on the left/5 in the diagram doesn't have a reset plunger.  You may not have that unit.


3] take a picture of the reset position of the wipers on both units as best you can.  Ideally post them here.


4] pull out the plugs from the insert board to the cabinet


5] connect an ohmeter to plug pins with wires 18 and 90 on them (highlighted).  You should NOT get low ohms/continuity. 


6] manually step up the odds unit once by pushing in/releasing the harder to reach solenoid coil plunger.  You should get almost zero ohms/continuity. 


If you don't get the zero ohms/continuity, your problem is wiper<->rivet connections on the odds unit or odds follower unit.  You need to clean the rivets, wiper finger contacts, and make sure the wipers are pressing down on the rivets with convincing pressure, but not so much that wiper reset slows down/stalls.  Lift the wiper finger a little with your fingernail and let go ... you should hear the finger "plink" down onto the rivet.


you can use the diagrams for the odds unit and odds follower units on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/952/ if you want.  Odds unit is also in previous post above.  The circuit is wires 90 -> 13-2 -> 18.   


Wire 13-2 (red/yellow) should be the top wire on the round odds follower unit contact plate, you can ohmeter between wires:
- 90 and 13-2 (odds unit stepped at least once)
- 13-2 and 18


if you don't see zero  ohms continuity on one of those, that where the wiper/rivet connection is bad.


how much of that makes no sense? :-)



if you got this far and are wondering why not just jumper wire 30 to 13-2 on the odds unit (or odds follower unit) and see if the safety relay powers when manually closing the reset relay, you could do that instead.  If the safety relay does power, jumper 30 to 90 with the odds unit stepped at least once and see what happens.

[tuna]

Wolftalk I apologize as I was not clear enough, When I jump the 18 wire to a 30 at the JP relay and manually actuate the relay.   The Safety Relay does nothing, but the hopper is a run away.  I rechecked it this evening just to make sure.

[wolftalk]

Wolftalk I apologize as I was not clear enough, When I jump the 18 wire to a 30 at the JP relay and manually actuate the relay.   The Safety Relay does nothing, but the hopper is a run away.  I rechecked it this evening just to make sure.

just to verify, when you say "manually actuate the relay", you mean the reset relay ... not the JP lockup relay, right?


when you have spun the reels after playing 2+ coins and not got a jackpot result, the ONLY switch or wiper connection that should be open in the entire safety relay circuit is the reset relay switch ... that's why you have to manually close the reset relay.

also not sure what "hopper is a run away" means.  If you mean the hopper motor turned on and stayed on, that's possible IF the safety relay powered and if the first reel stopped on certain blank spots.  No coins should come out tho.   It's also possible your game is wired slightly differently than the schematics I have and the behavior is normal.

if you mean you left the jumper on and played the game until you got a winner, then yup, you'd get runaway payout because the game was recycling the payout correctly but the jumper doesn't let the odds follower unit stop the payout process because you bypassed it.

in any case, if you jumper wire 30 to wire 18 on the JP lockup relay and manually close the reset relay, the safety relay should power.  If it doesn't, jumper 30 to 65-5 on the JP lockup relay.  If that powers the safety relay, the switch needs cleaning/adjusting.  It should be closed and connecting 18 to 65-5 when the JP lockup relay is unpowered.


----------- alt method ----------

it can be a hassle getting a jumper into tight places.  I usually use a voltmeter as it's easier to poke a probe onto a switch blade or into the insulator sleeve/tube onto the wire. 

The test here is:

1] one meter probe on orange wire 70 on any handy 50V coil
2] other probe on wire 18.
3] optional but ideal, close the reset relay.  Checking voltages in a closed circuit will show poor connections as voltage drops.

you should see 50VAC

4] move probe from 18 to 65-5

if you see something around 20-40V, the switch is cruddy or the contacts are barely touching.  If you see almost 0V, the switch is open (even if it looks closed).

--------- alt method 2 ----------

another way to test if a normally closed switch connection is bad - jumper the switch blades.  In this case, jumper 18 to 65-5 and play the game.  The switch only needs to open during jackpot lockup, so it's not likely to be needed.

[tuna]

Wolftalk I apologize as I was not clear enough, When I jump the 18 wire to a 30 at the JP relay and manually actuate the relay.   The Safety Relay does nothing, but the hopper is a run away.  I rechecked it this evening just to make sure.

just to verify, when you say "manually actuate the relay", you mean the reset relay ... not the JP lockup relay, right?


No it is the JP relay when manually actuated that the Safety relay does nothing.

when you have spun the reels after playing 2+ coins and not got a jackpot result, the ONLY switch or wiper connection that should be open in the entire safety relay circuit is the reset relay switch ... that's why you have to manually close the reset relay.

also not sure what "hopper is a run away" means.  If you mean the hopper motor turned on and stayed on, that's possible IF the safety relay powered and if the first reel stopped on certain blank spots.  No coins should come out tho.   It's also possible your game is wired slightly differently than the schematics I have and the behavior is normal.

if you mean you left the jumper on and played the game until you got a winner, then yup, you'd get runaway payout because the game was recycling the payout correctly but the jumper doesn't let the odds follower unit stop the payout process because you bypassed it.

in any case, if you jumper wire 30 to wire 18 on the JP lockup relay and manually close the reset relay, the safety relay should power.  If it doesn't, jumper 30 to 65-5 on the JP lockup relay.  If that powers the safety relay, the switch needs cleaning/adjusting.  It should be closed and connecting 18 to 65-5 when the JP lockup relay is unpowered.


----------- alt method ----------

it can be a hassle getting a jumper into tight places.  I usually use a voltmeter as it's easier to poke a probe onto a switch blade or into the insulator sleeve/tube onto the wire. 

The test here is:

1] one meter probe on orange wire 70 on any handy 50V coil
2] other probe on wire 18.
3] optional but ideal, close the reset relay.  Checking voltages in a closed circuit will show poor connections as voltage drops.

you should see 50VAC

4] move probe from 18 to 65-5

if you see something around 20-40V, the switch is cruddy or the contacts are barely touching.  If you see almost 0V, the switch is open (even if it looks closed).

--------- alt method 2 ----------

another way to test if a normally closed switch connection is bad - jumper the switch blades.  In this case, jumper 18 to 65-5 and play the game.  The switch only needs to open during jackpot lockup, so it's not likely to be needed.

[wolftalk]

the switch on the JP lockup relay was already closed.  If you jumpered to wire 18 and pushed down the JP relay armature plate, you opened the switch and broke the circuit to the safety relay yourself.


jumper 30 to 18, leave the JP relay alone and close the reset relay.  What happens?

[tuna]

It took some time on the back burner, it was the contacts on the jackpot relay.  They would ohm out ok, then go out of adjustment.  Thanks again Wolftalk!