BALLY 809-6ZZF Trouble Shooting Help Needed

[drsmlojo]

Hi to all of you who love the Bally E.M's:
QUESTION No. 1: I have a Bally 809-6ZZF that had been sitting un played  for a long time prior to my bringing it to my home. I've gone through everything replacing the usual things that these old slots need. Replacing burned out and missing bulbs, new front door lock, replacing the zero stop bumper, new belly glass, etc., etc., etc. Everything was working 100% perfect until yesterday!! It has all the usual fruit and the single, double and triple bars. Everything was finally playing and paying perfectly- even the 4 coin triple bar payoff of 800 quarters. The 5th coin of course was 2000 coins ($500 attendant pay). Anyway out of the clear blue I no longer am getting ANY PAYOUTS on matching single, double, or triple bar payouts. The MIXED BAR payouts are still 100% accurate along with all the other smaller fruit payouts. I've cleaned and re-cleaned contacts, looked for bad wires, everything I know to do to no avail. In looking at the schematic it mentions a "Bar Match Relay" that must be energized when 3 bars match in order to start the hopper payout. Where is this relay located, and how do i know if it's sending a message to the hopper or not?? Could this be my problem?? Once again this happened out of the clear blue with no warning. What's weird is that when I line up 3 matching bars, I hear a click and one little ding from the side bell like the signal has been sent to start the hopper, but that's it- nothing happens. Any suggestions as to how to approach fixing this??


QUESTION No. 2: Where can I get a few quarter and nickel coin red denomination stickers (with the adhesive on the front) that go on the inside bottom center area of the reel glass for these Bally 800 Series Slots?? They always seem to be really faded and are nice to replace when bringing these old electro mechanical slots back to life!!


If anyone can help me I'd greatly appreciate it!!!!


Steve L. (909) 630-3450    steve1512@roadrunner.com


 


 

[Herbie21]

Hi Steve,


Is the machine paying 20 as a mixed bar or nothing when hitting a tripple bar?


Herbie

[wolftalk]

my docs say the 809-6ZZF = stardust hotel "break the bank".   The generic bally version that has the same reel tapes, index discs and payout counter is 809-5ZB.  I'll get the docs for 5ZB posted onto http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ today.


however, the "break the bank" models didn't have mixed bars, so looks like your model number plate doesn't match the guts.  I'm starting to wonder if any model plate is right :-)


what is the w-1046-x number on your schematic?  The 809-B (w-1046-511) has mixed bars and a bar match relay, and the below is for a -B.
 
the bar match relay could be anywhere, but one big hint is look at the wire id on the coil on the schem and see if that wire leaves the reel mech via the plugs.  On the 809-B, it's red/green wire 14-1 and it does not leave the reel mech, so the relay is likely mounted to the right of the reel #3 contact plate.


herbie's question is good.  If the bar match relay was not powering, the game should pay 20 on all same-bar wins.  2-bar and 3-bar wins go thru the odds disc, but 1-bar wins should go directly to the 50 trace on the payout counter.  Problem there would be one of:


- poor wiper connections on the reels
- the bar match relay switch with wire 48-2 and 43 is not closed when bar match relay powered
- plug connections at reel plug or hopper for wire 43.

[drsmlojo]

Hi again:
In answer to your questions, any 3 mixed bars pays perfect 20 for 1 coin played up to 100 for 5 coins played. Problem is the MATCHED SINGLE, DOUBLE, and TRIPLE BARS which all pay nothing regardless if 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 coins are played. When manually stopping the reels on a matched bar set, there is a brief and quick "click", the bell seems to do one brief "ding" and that's it. HELP..............................
Steve L.

[drsmlojo]

Oh, one more thing. These pays were all working perfect- even the 800 coin payout for the triple matched bars with 4 coins in. Then it just started out of the clear blue  with these problems. Does this info help??
Steve L.

[Herbie21]

Hi Steve,


your bar match relay is not powering up. This will keep the 20-pay activated and block the 50,100 and 200 pays.


The relay is located on the right side of the hopper, see picture.


So take the hopper out.


First check the coil of the bar match relay for loose wires, you can jump wire the coil to see it is working (very rarely broken).


Than set the hopper at a three bar pay-out by hand.


Than check continuity from the red-gree (14-1) and the gray (90) as marked on the photo.


share your findings and we might need to go to the next step


good luck Herbie

[Herbie21]

Steve to check the bell


take out reel, by hand put some bar-bar-bar


look for continuity between 10-2 an 45 on the beauplug (24) at the back see photo, good luck Herbie

[drsmlojo]

Hi Herbie: Did you mean the "bar-match-relay" to be on the right side of the REEL BUNDLE as in the photo you sent, rather than the right side of the hopper?? And can you mark for me on the photo the Red/green (14-1) and the gray (90) wires. Your help is very much appreciated. I'll let you and the others know what I discover!!
Steve L.

[wolftalk]

yeah, herbie meant the reel mech, not the hopper.  His picture is showing the bar match relay.


what I was trying to say is if the bar match relay does not power, then matched bars would pay 20 just like mixed bars do IF your machine is like a 809-B. 


since your game is not paying 20 on the matched bars, that implies the bar match relay is powering.


the bell only rings as long as the payout relay under the hopper is powered.  Sounds like you are getting a brief payout relay powering, then it lets go.


the trick is finding a single point of failure that would cause the matched bars to not pay but the bar match relay is still powering.   The only thing I see is a reel wiper finger on reel 1 - the third finger down from the top.  Make sure the rivets it's sweeping over are clean and the finger is making good contact to the rivets.


if the rivets on the reel wiper boards have black tracks on them, just clean them all.  A green scrub pad and denatured alcohol works.  Pretty much any solvent and mild abrasive that doesn't scratch the brass is fine.

[DavidLee]

First question,
check the wiper boards and blades for continuity when there aligned for a payout, but don’t pay.


Most of the denominations in the center seem to have been replaced or are very faded.
It’s possible to get creative on a computer and print your own decals.
Just be real care removing the old one. As to not disturbing the outer circle, specially if it has a mirror
finish.

[drsmlojo]

Boy do I appreciate all the great advice on this site. Hopefully someday I can pay it forward to others. OKAY- Here's where I am- still no changes in lack of pays for the matched bars. Otherwise rest of payouts are still perfect. I have spent a lot of time checking all the plug connections, cleaning the wiper boards and looking for loose wires etc.


The plug connections all look fine to me, the rivets on the wiper boards are real clean and the wiper fingers slide easily over all the rivets. I now can verify with a flashlight that the BAR MATCH RELAY does in fact energize and stay tripped when 3 MATCHING BARS OCCURS. It does not energize when 3 MIXED bars appear which is what I believe it's supposed to do. Once again the 3 mixed bars pays 20 as it should. My problem is still of course when 3 matching bars come out- there is no payout.


When the 3 matching bars appear, the BAR MATCH RELAY as I said does its thing, the bell dings once and the payout relay at the front bottom of the hopper energizes quickly and then releases. In fact I can set up the winning 3 matching bars and after the Bar Match Relay energizes, bell rings one ding and the payout relay trips and then releases, I can pull the entire reel bundle forward to release it from its rear plugs, and then I can slide the reel bundle forward slowly and everything will repeat again with the sequence of bar match relay tripping, one ding for the bell, and the payout relay at front of hopper energizing and then tripping off. The hopper even sometimes kind of starts to move a mm or so but not enough for any quarters to come out.


SO, I'm beginning to think I have a loose or unattached wire at the hopper. What do you all think?? Once again all these payouts (even the 800 coin Triple BAR payout with 4 coins in) was working fine till I started moving things around and cleaning everything up. I should have known better. IF IT AIN'T BROKE..............For years I was collecting the large, heavy electromechanical Console Slots (Bally, Mills, Buckley, Keeney etc). Sometimes I'd only just move a machine from one side of the room to another and all of a sudden open a can of worms with malfunctions!!!! Oh well, live and learn. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm really thinking I now have a hopper issue.


Steve L.   

[wolftalk]

you did verify the 3rd wiper finger down on reel one is pressing against the rivets with decent pressure, right?  Lift it some with your fingernail and let go to verify is snaps back down onto the rivets.  That finger is only used for matched bars.  The one above it powers the matched bar relay and the top three fingers should all be connected together at the edge.
if that's ok, you must have a voltmeter.  Make life easy and debug the match single bars first ... that circuit doesn't go thru the odds disc.


attach a voltmeter probe on green/yellow wire 43 on the payout counter disc under the hopper.  It's on the 50 trace.   Attach other probe to orange wire 70 on any handy 50V coil.  Set up your single bar win and see if you have 50VAC.


if you do, move probe from wire 43 to 93 and see if you have 50V there ... you'll probably need to yank the hopper and reinstall to move the probes.


if you don't have 50V or something less than 50V on wire 43, then either a plug connection is cruddy or a bars match relay switch is no good. 


the diagram of the payout counter is below.  Verify yours has the same m-645-118 on it. 

[drsmlojo]

Hi again:
YES, the wiper blade is making good positive contacts with the clean rivets on wiper board #1.
My Payout Counter is 645-11M rather than the 645-118 your diagram depicted. In that case is my testing with the voltmeter as you pointed out still applicable?? Let me know before I try testing it.
Steve L.

[Herbie21]

Steve, what if you, during the start of the payout of one of your triple bars you press the bar match relay by hand, you should be able to reach it on the right side of the reels?


Wolf correct me if I am wrong,


Herbie

[DavidLee]

Some older machines have a jackpot relay.
This might apply to your machine.
If so the relay may need attention.

[wolftalk]

645-11M?  I don't think I have any docs that would have that number.  The standard bally numbering scheme was M-645-x


can you post a pic?


the number actually doesn't matter, what you can do is look at the wiring side of the reel 1 contact plate when the first reel is on a single bar symbol.  Trace the spaghetti wire on the rivet where the 3rd finger down is sitting to the wire lugs and see what color wire is attached to the lug.  On the 809-B, it would be green/black wire 48-2.


wire 48-2 then goes to a switch on the bar match relay and the other blade is on that switch is a green/yellow wire going to the 50 trace on the payout counter.


if that's what ya got, then the voltage testing will work. 


wrt herbie's suggestiion, he may have missed that the bar match relay is powering when you have matching bars.  If you pushed down the bar match relay armature when you have mixed bars, then the game couldn't pay 20.  Or maybe he meant push down/rock the armature to see if the switch contacts are flaky.


wrt david's comment about a jackpot relay ... could be.  That's kinda what the bar match relay is ... it switches in higher paying circuits. 


that's the problem with not having paperwork that exactly matches the machine.  However, by debugging the single bars that only pays 50, it's unlikely that a jackpot relay switch or odds disc wipers are in the circuit in addition to the bar match relay switches.  Payout counters can handle 200 coin pays (maybe 250), so any pay at/below that usually handled directly thru the payout counter wipers and traces.


the problem you have is none of the pays that go thru the bar match relay when it's powered work, and those circuits are independent and you'd need to have a problem with 3 different switches on the bar match relay for none of the matched bars to pay, or multiple problems that coincidentally only affect match bars.  e.g. one bad bar match relay switch, one bad odds disc connection, and one bad plug connection.  That why I nagged about the reel 1 wiper ... it's the last place that matched bars have a common circuit.


the bar match relay is on the reel mech, right?  If so, another sanity check is to yank the reels and do some resistance measurements while holding down the bar match relay armature plate.  Doesn't matter what symbol is on reel 1 centerline for this:


- wire 48-2 on reel 1 wiper board to wire 43 on the bar match relay switch - and ideally wire 43 the reel beau plug pin (yellow circuit below)
- wire 80-2 on reel 1 to wire 65-1 (blue)
- wire 56-1 to 93-2 (red)


you should see almost zero ohms for all the above.  If not, the associated bar match relay switch has a problem.


you know how to map wire id's -> wire colors and find the wires on the reel board and plugs?

[DavidLee]

Next time you have the odds unit exposed, post a photo or two of the odds unit.
Particularly the back of the unit, as some machines have a combination of relay / switch stacks mounted on the rear.
As I recall there’s a reset, jackpot and one other switch stack. There’s a 50% chance the labels are still intact.

[drsmlojo]

With regard to Herbie's suggestion to line up 3 matching bars and then physically hold down the BAR MATCH RELAY. I had already tried that early on. After 3- 4 seconds of doing that, one of the 5 amp fuses blew. With regard to checking the volt meter at the hopper places that Wolf suggested, come to think of it I can't do that because I don't have Bally Extension Cables to allow me to test outside of the cabinet case. No room of course to do this inside of the cabinet. Any suggestion as to whether cables are ever available anywhere for me to trouble shoot these e.m. slot hoppers and/or reel bundles outside of cabinet??
Steve L.

[wolftalk]

With regard to Herbie's suggestion to line up 3 matching bars and then physically hold down the BAR MATCH RELAY. I had already tried that early on. After 3- 4 seconds of doing that, one of the 5 amp fuses blew. With regard to checking the volt meter at the hopper places that Wolf suggested, come to think of it I can't do that because I don't have Bally Extension Cables to allow me to test outside of the cabinet case. No room of course to do this inside of the cabinet. Any suggestion as to whether cables are ever available anywhere for me to trouble shoot these e.m. slot hoppers and/or reel bundles outside of cabinet??

when you have matched bars, the bar match relay should power and stay powered until you spin the reels again.  If the bar match relay unpowers, then the game should pay 20 like mixed bars.   


a fuse shouldn't blow if you hold down the bar match relay ... where that issue is depends on what symbols were on the payline and what the game was doing ... was the hopper running?


without extension cables, you have to clip the meter probes onto places and stick the mech back into the cabinet.  If desperate, temporarily solder a long wire onto the spot you want to test so you can poke the wire end outside the cabinet.


unless you do this a lot, making or buying extension cables is more effort than soldering a temporary wire.

[drsmlojo]

Hi everyone: Please excuse this this long post, but I've got great news to share!! I have always loved the field of Coin-Ops. I began with collecting old mechanical slot machines beginning back in '77 when collecting slots 1st became legal in Ca. Going on 44+ years now!! Over the years I've had slots, jukeboxes, trade stimulators, jukeboxes and even a few pinball games. The all mechanical games will always be my favorites, but I also developed a warm spot for those older large and heavy Console Slot games along of course with the wonderful Bally Electromechanical Slots. These E.M. Bally Slots I vividly remember from early Las Vegas visits when I was only 17 at Circus Circus and the International Hotel where Elvis would regularly perform. There always was something wonderful about the look and feel of using real coins in and out, the real pulling down of the handle, hearing a bell ring occasionally, hearing real coins fall into the coin trays, our fingers and hands turning black from the coins, seeking out fun games that had very different features, and using hard wired circuit logic before computers and modern electronics ever came along. The new electronic games hold little interest to me. They all seem alike, and except for the poker machines I find boring. Guess it's another sign of getting old!! Anyway over the years I've enjoyed playing, collecting and keeping a few Bally E.M. Slots working and playing properly. I suppose the old car buffs feel the same about some of there old treasures!!


When I found out that New Life Games had a forum for these older E.M. Slots, I was so excited to know that there were other "GEEKS" out there like me!! My recent problems with my fairly common Bally 809 are a great testimonial to the interest some of us have in preserving some of the fun yet meaningful things from our past. I can't tell you all what an absolute pleasure it's been to communicate with folks out there like wolftalk, DavidLee, Herbie21 et. al. We'll probably never meet in person, but what an absolute pleasure it's been to get to know you guys. What you do solely for the love and promotion of our little hobby is so admirable and so appreciated by all of us who regularly read your posts, yet may not have the knowledge, experience or ability to communicate with others as you folks do so well!!


Just last week I visited New Life Games in Bullhead City, Az and told owner Joey that I read the E.M. Forum blogs on a regular basis. I had just placed my 1st posting on this site at that time. He acknowledged the popularity of the site and said he had heard so many good things regarding it, and was well aware of those of us who have specific areas of interest when it comes to coin-op games. It was a nice visit and time spent with him.


NOW, THE MOST IMPORTANT REASON FOR MY POST- MY 809 SLOT IS FIXED AND PLAYING PROPERLY!!!!!!! My goal is that with each post maybe we all learn a little bit more. My slot of course was paying out perfectly before I began screwing with it. It had sat for a long time unplayed with the previous owner. As I always do I removed the hopper, top unit, and reel bundle. All the minor little bugs were eventually properly taken care of. Removing the hardened grease, freeing up and lubricating parts, getting the stepper unit cleaned up so it registered each incoming coin, lights, new belly glass, new lock and key, adjusting and cleaning hopper etc., etc., etc.


WELL, it was at that time that when everything was put back together I developed a problem soon after out of the clear blue. All pays were perfect except for MATCHING BARS. I went from suspecting bad, dirty connectors in the BEAU PLUGS, faulty hopper relays, bad broken or loose wires, faulty Bar Match Relay, bad wiper blade connections and on and on. Seems like every night after working on it before bed, I'd dream about the possibility of something else being the cause of my problem.


FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, wolftalk kept going on and on about the reel #1 Wiper Blade #3. I made sure the blade and contact boards were clean so many times I lost count. I made sure that when I'd lift blade #3 that it made positive contact with the rivet on the wiper board. So to appease wolftalk again (LOL) I placed a winning 3 bar matching bar on the payline. After I got the expected click and one ding from the bell and nothing else, I reached with a screwdriver and pushed reel #1 wiper blade #3 with more force against the rivet wolftalk has been harping about. I have to say he is an absolute genius, because when I did, I GOT THE PROPER PAYOUT. First time in weeks!!!!!!! I removed the reel bundle in order to slightly bend this blade a little tighter, but even though the blade was making okay contact with the rivet, I still couldn't get it to pay out on its own. So I next removed the reel #1 wiper blade assembly to see things better. At that moment it seemed like wiper blade #3 was a little bit wiggly and loose- not snug and tightly in place like the other 8 blades. I noticed that there was some old solder at the edge of the plate where it looked like the little metal protrusion had been broken off in the past and someone had definitely done a solder repair. This solder was loose and when I was pushing with the screwdriver I was actually pushing the soldered part back together and not really pushing blade #3 any tighter against the board rivet. SO- I re soldered this little area which firmed up blade #3. Everything from that point on has now worked and functioned perfectly!!!! I've enclosed some photos to show the area that was re soldered. Also I sent photos of the hopper which wolftalk requested.


In short- THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. You guys are all great. PLEASE keep up your giving expertise on this site. I'm know it's most appreciated by many others besides just me. I learned a great deal in trouble shooting this problem. I feel a real sense of accomplishment, but I owe it all to you guys. Thanks again for all you do for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Steve L.