873-A not resetting

[Phan000]

Picked up an 873-A this weekend.


Was playing single coins when I bought it, no lights up top.  Owner stated they same on occasionally.


6v fuse top must have been loose.  It fell out and was broken in the move.  I replaced the fuse holder with a temporary spare.  It is showing continuity.


Machine is no longer playing.  Coins rejected.  When coin switch is manually pressed,  there is a click in the stepper unit, nothing else.


I took out reel mech and stepper unit.  Cleaned off all hardened grease & lubed.  Also cleaned beau plugs.


What should I jump or test?  Reset coil does not hum when pressed.  Appears to not have power.


Thanks!

[wolftalk]

the 873's were 5 line pay. 


looks like you have an 809 ... 5 coin multiplier.  Grab the codes stamped into the slotted reel index discs, the M-645-xxx number off the payout counter disc, and if desperate you can pull out the top of a reel tape and see the code on the tape end underneath.


if your coin relay and handle release relay are already tripped and the odds unit is at top step (4), then the coin lockout coil is unpowered and coins are returned.   Manually flipping the coin switch will power the odds relay.


if the coin relay is tripped but the handle release isn't, that's a problem.

[Phan000]

Thanks for the input wolf.


Turns out the hopper was not seated correctly.  Also,  the fuse holder was still not working correctly.  I tried jumping the 6v fuse holder and the lights instantly worked.


This machine is up and running, everything seems to work correctly.


Just needs some cosmetic cleaning and a bit more gunk removal.


Thanks again.

[Phan000]

Any tips for touch up paint on glass spots like this?


Didn’t really scratch lettering, just the opaque portion.

[wolftalk]

google for "pinball backglass touchup".


this has a lot of info:
http://www.pinrepair.com/restore/index1.htm#bg

you also have the option of scanning, cutting/scraping off the entire area inside the mirrored border and replacing with a decal.


or just remove the lamp and see if it looks better when not lit :-)

[Phan000]

I found a new issue with this machine-


When any winning combination is hit, jackpot bell goes off and the machine pays... however the bell does not stop, and the winning paid light does not come on.


If I insert a coin, everything is back to normal and the winner paid light comes on.


What area should I look at to address this issue?




Thanks!

[DavidLee]

It’s possible when a higher payout is paid by the attendant the be would keep ringing.
Also there might be a jackpot relay that needs attention.

[Phan000]

The bell rings for every payout, which I guess could be normal.   But the machine does not seem to reset after a payout, though it may be a small one.


What would cause it to reset once a quarter is inserted?  This machine does not have a coin reject coil.

[wolftalk]

the only useful thing that changes when a payout is over is the payout relay unpowers.


usually on games that the bell rang for the duration of a win, the bell was either directly powered by a payout relay switch or the bell circuit thru the reels was disconnected by an SPDT payout relay switch ... same one that caused the winner paid light to turn on when the payout relay unpowers.


can't say what your machine actually is, but a common circuit for the winner paid light went thru a "reset pawl" switch on the payout counter.  That switch is on ratchet side of the payout counter and should be open when the payout counter is reset, closed when the payout counter is stepped up 1+ times.  The winner paid light stays on until a reel spin causes the payout counter to reset.


when depositing a coin, usually the coin relay and handle release relays trip.  Neither usually affected the bell or the winner paid light


implication is you've got some non-typical wiring in your machine and you're going to have to do some reverse-engineering, or your coin relay switches are messed up/mis-wired.  Got pics of your coin relay and payout relay from back far enough and angles to see all the switches and wire colors?

[Phan000]

I misspoke about the winner paid lamp.  It does turn on when a payout is completed.


Basically the runaway jackpot bell is the issue. It chimes nonstop for every win.  It does not turn off with a coin inserted, only reset when handle is pulled after a win.


I have some photos. Please let me know if any other angles would help.


I noticed that if I press the armature above the “interlock relay” tag ,  the bell starts and does not stop until I manually pull it up.  When the power is off, it springs up normally.

[DavidLee]

In most cases the solid red wire is associated with the bell and jackpot light.


Check the contacts for clearance on the relay in question.
They might need some adjustment.
You could insulate the contacts connected to the red wire to see what happens on a payout.

[wolftalk]

an interlock relay is an electrically resettable trip relay ... power one coil, the thing trips.  Power the other one and it resets.


I don't recall seeing an interlock relay on any schematic I've scanned and cleaned up.  The wire colors on the coils are also odd ... it looks like the coils have the same color wires on both terminals, which makes no sense.  Tracer color not visible in the pictures?


the relay above the interlock can't see the wires attached to the switch blades, and the wires on the coil lugs are solid blue and solid red?


a pic from further back so the wire colors can be seen on the interlock relay switches and the relay above would be great.  Your pics are high enough res that a pic showing more of the inside of the cabinet with the terminal strips and handle release relay should be good enough, and try for angles where the wire colors are identifiable which keeping the context of what the picture is of.


just to sanity check, how many coins were you playing and how many did it pay on the win where the bell kept ringing ... and what was the win symbols?  David's comment about the game being in a jackpot lockup mode (that maybe someone modified) would explain the bell behavior, especially if the interlock relay is the jackpot lockup relay.


your payout relay does look like it has the typical bell ringing switch.  Does the second switch down (blades 4-6 from top) have grey/red, yellow, and green/white wires on the blades in that order?


your m-645-118 payout counter is consistent with an 809 lightning model. 


you have a bar jackpot relay on the reel mech - usually to the right of the reel 3 wiper board?  Some 809's like the 809-3ZK and 809-ZT ring the bell as long as the bar jackpot relay is powered, but it should unpower when the coin relay and/or handle release relay trip.

[Phan000]

One coin with bars pays 1.00 - this is the lowest winning combination, but still produces the runaway bell.


I unplugged the plug going to the counter in the bottom of the machine.  Now the bell stops when a new nickel inserted.  Probably can live with it like that. There is a red wire going to a button in that area that seems to do nothing.


Another small issue-  one coin inserted often will cause the stepper to jump to the two coin position.  Any remedies for this?


Here are some more photos of the interlock.

[wolftalk]

getting warmer :-)  Needed the pics from further back so can see what wires are connected to what switch blades.

I finally found a game that has a interlock relay and a 6V jackpot relay ... the 988-7.  Schem is on the http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ site.

you definitely don't have a 988 ... or at least not the top half of it.  That machine had two progressive jackpots and was a 3-line machine.

fwiw, on that game the interlock relay "latched" when all 4 reels matched any symbol except 7's, the interlock relay "tripped" when the handle was pulled.  Whether tripped means the switch stack was up or down I dunno.

the bell rang when one or more of the following was true:
1] jackpot lockup.  The bell rings forever until an attendant clears the lockup.
2] 6V jackpot relay powered.  This relay once powered held itself powered until a coin was dropped in.
3] during payout thru a interlock switch when the interlock was latched.  Circuit disconnected when payout stopped, but oddly when the bell started via this circuit the 6V jackpot relay in [2] also powered.

net affect was the jackpot bell rang on a jackpot forever in lockup or until a coin was deposited.  Seems like if someone won a OR-OR-OR-OR pay for 20 and walked away, the bell would stay ringing ... maybe that got the person on the adjacent machine to deposit a coin just to shut it up :-)

the 988-9 rang the bell forever in lockup or only during the payout.  It didn't have the odd 6V jackpot relay.

I would guess your machine is now an 809 that has been pieced together from other parts.  The serial plate was make by someone not bally, and the 873-A and serial number is just for some paper trail as required when the machines was sold (i.e. they had the docs to legally sell a 873-A with that serial, but they transferred that serial to your machine not exactly legally).

it'd be interesting to see if a bunch of the wires on the interlock relay go to the reel connector socket but nowhere thru the mating plug onto the reel mech itself....or did they go to the molex plug you pulled apart?  If so, did they go thru the plug someplace or just end there?


I'd be inclined to decide how you want the bell to operate and make the changes so it works like that.  If the interlock relay and 6V jackpot relay aren't doing anything useful at that point, remove them and any useless wiring.  You can reasonably neatly untie the bundle string and retie it tightly after pulling wires.

[Phan000]

Thanks for the incite wolf & David.  I’ll probably leave the bell
As is for now.  I’ve attached photos of the bottom.  Not really sure that the molex does.


The machine is intermittently stepping right to coin two.  Like half of the time, one coin skips over two
The two coin spot.


What would cause this?  Thanks

[wolftalk]

The machine is intermittently stepping right to coin two.  Like half of the time, one coin skips over two
The two coin spot.

What would cause this?  Thanks

if you can hear the step up coil firing twice, usually it's a switch with not enough gap when open and arcing.  Look for sparks with the lights off.  However, if this was a problem you'd get intermittent jumps at other coin levels, so it's probably a cruddy stepper unit.


manually step up and reset your odds unit (probably ... could be labeled coin unit).  If the wipers are sluggish on reset, you'll need to clean at least the rivets.  The wipers should whizz back to reset from any step. 


also verify the wipers are resetting all the way.  You should not be able to spin the white ratchet further in the reset direction.


all the wires leaving the interlock relay and the 6V jackpot relay above it go thru the plug?  The wire bundle going to the terminal strips is not involved?  i.e. you can disconnect the plug and remove the entire plate with the interlock relay and 6V relay on it?


if yes, you'd have to follow the wires from the plug to where they all go in the game to see what they do.  David previously said the red and blue ones go to the bell, the rest ...   you're basically drawing a schematic.  If the switch in your pic closes when you close the door, does the bell ring when the door is open (or when the door is open only when there's a winner)?


if you can disconnect the plug and the game works like you want, then it's just curiosity on what they put those parts in there for. 

[DavidLee]

Odds unit step up is not resetting completely caused by lubricant build up and dust particles.
Step it up the release it, observe the speed in which it returns. It should snap back rather quickly.


Best to check forward movement as well as return.


Check the coin in switch for freedom of movement.

[Phan000]

Is the odds unit on the left or right side?


I just cleaned both the plastic ratchet, and the wipers.  Thin wipe of oil on wiper side.


Good tension and return on spring.  Snaps back to zero fairly quickly.


It’s still skipping directly to the second coin.  I’m manually pressing coin switch.


Occasionally, in first coin slot, faint light on at second coin.


I’ve tried adjusting switches, tried putting insulation to isolate the problem switch.


Spark appears to be from the vertical switch in the rear, but hard to tell.


When I adjusted that switch, it stayed in single coin mode.


Really confused but feel like I’m overlooking something simple.




Angled photo is when it is in second coin location with single coin inserted.

[DavidLee]

Great, everything looks clean.
Notice the positions of the contacts.
Not at my shop to compare.
But, it appears the contacts are out of adjustment.
Manually operate the unit. When control bar "the little round protruding piece" reaches a set of contact blades.
There should be a reaction that opens the associated contacts.
Both sides look to be in need of adjustment.
Just do one at a time.

[wolftalk]

I read that as the pictures are when the unit has stepped once, so the zero/top switches look reasonable.


ideally, take a bunch of pictures:


1] when unit is reset, a pic of the wiper side and ratchet side.  Take from back far enough the wires attached to the zero/top switches (ones poking out over the ratchet) can be seen


2] same pics when unit has stepped once


3] same pics when unit has stepped three times


4] same pics when unit has stepped four times ... which is the last step


it may be easier to take video and manually step/reset the unit, but you'll need to stick the video someplace else for people to look at.


the other thing you should look at is whether the wipers are centered reasonably on the rivets when the unit steps.   When the wrong column is lit, stop and look at what position the odds unit is at and where the wipers are.   It may help to put a sharpie mark on a wiper finger and the contact plate when the unit is reset so it's easy to see how many times the unit has stepped.