No Payouts 1088

[rjpohl]

I've cleaned all switches and cleaned/lubed reel mech.


Everything works, takes coins (all 3) and registers them.  Handle pulls freely and reels spin and stop as they should.  Only issue it doesn't make any payouts.  I check the payout mech and it advances by manually and returns to zero by hand.
I think it's probably something very simple, just want to get some advise before I start exploring and mess it up.


thanks
Bob


[edited to change topic from E1088 to just 1088]

[wolftalk]

E series games are in the "reel games" forum - Bally Reel Games (newlifegames.com)


those games use optical sensors to read the reel positions to determine winners, so the folks over in that area have the knowledge you need.

[rjpohl]

It is a EM, fully mechanical.

[wolftalk]

where did you get the E1088 from?  Is it just a 1088 (top number on plate below the handle)?


paperwork for some 1088 models in on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/


if you're comfortable reading the schematic and using the 1088 one as an example, win detection and payout can be divided into three chunks:


1] wire 90 (and 91, 93 if you played 2/3 coins) need to have a closed circuit path back to wire 30, which is the common ("ground") wire on the transformer.


test is stick a voltmeter probe on orange wire 70 on the handle release coil (or any handy 50V coil) and the other probe on grey wire 90 on handle release relay switch.  You should see 50V after the reels have been spun regardless of where the reels wind up.


2] the reel wipers connect wire 90 thru the three reel contact plates to the appropriate wire for the payout on the payout counter on the hopper


set up a single cherry win on the reels and pull out the reel mech.  Use an ohmeter with probes on wire 90 and 13 on the reel mech plugs (see plug chart on schem and verify the wire colors on plug).  You should get almost zero ohms.


alternate test, voltmeter with one probe on orange wire 70 on any handy 50V coil, other probe on wire 13 on the payout counter disc.  You should get 50V when you have a single cherry win.


3] circuit continues thru payout counter wipers/trace and causes the payout relay to power.  That turns on the hopper motor and ejecting coins cause the payout counter step-up coil to pulse and step up the unit (the 1088 has an electrically stepped payout counter).  When the wipers step off the end of the trace that is connected back to wire 90 (and therefore 30), the the circuit disconnects, the payout relay unpowers and the hopper motor turns off.


a quick test is turn off machine after a spin, pull hopper, jumper wire 30 to one of the numbered traces on the payout counter, put hopper back in and turn on the game.  Push the reset button at the top/right of the door opening and the game should pay the amount on the trace you jumpered.


with no payouts working, the most likely thing is one of the switches on the path between wire 90 and 30 is open when it shouldn't be.  If the handle release is working when you drop in a coin, that just leaves a coin relay switch and a handle release relay switch to connect 60-1 to 90.  Other possible problems are bad payout relay coil or a reel wiper is not mounted correctly so it sitting on the wrong rivets.


tmi, or is that not enough info?  The wire id -> color chart is on the schem.  e.g. 60-1 is a solid brown wire, 90 is solid grey, 63-3 would be brown with a yellow tracer/stripe.


if you don't have a voltmeter, a jumper wire can be used to connect wire 30 to any place in the circuit path to the payout relay.  By moving the jumper around, you'll find the point that has an open connection to 30 when it should be closed.

[wolftalk]

if you aren't comfortable reading the schem yet, a pic of the coin relay and handle release relay when they are reset (after a spin, before a coin is inserted) will help, and whether you are a voltmeter or jumper guy if it gets to the point of needing to do that.

[rjpohl]

Wolftalk, reading a schematic is like Greek to me.  I do feel pretty comfortable with use of jumper and ohm meter.  attached is a pic of tag on slot.  I'm going to try to work on this a few hours tomorrow.
I appreciate your help, information and of course your time.
Bob

[wolftalk]

ok, you have the base model 1088 assuming the tag matches your game.  Usually if the reel symbols match what the schem says you're pretty safe.  You have CH, BE, BA, PL, and OR symbols only?


there's a few writeups on reading the schem scattered around the net.  If you are bored and want to give brutal feedback, check out Bingo Pinballs - Electricity, voltmeters, and reading Schematics (cdyn.com).  Almost everything in there applies to the EM slots also (the bingos were EM machines made by bally in the same years as the slots), with the main exceptions being where functional blocks of stuff is on the schem and some component info that doesn't exist in slots, the slots are all plastic coated wires, and normally closed (NC) switches on the slot schematic actually look closed ... the pole line is touching the dot.


I'm mostly interested in "that doesn't make sense" or "tmi" kinda feedback.  The main idea is you are trying to get from wire 30 to the top side of a coil symbol thru a closed circuit path.  (or 30 to a lamp if you are having a 6V circuit issue).   Once you get the switch and wiper/contact plate symbols figured out, it's gets easier to figure out what is supposed to happen in the game.


one thing you need to know to make sense of the schem is the coin relay and handle release relay are trip relays.  Once the coil powers, the switches all change state and stay that way until the relay is mechanically reset during the spin.  That's why, for example, a switch on the coin relay disconnects the coin relay coil.  As soon as the relay trips, power is not needed or desired to the coil.

[wolftalk]

forgot the hopper cutoff relay.  Below is the 1088 schematic highlighted in green for a cherry pay with one coin played. 


the reel wipers are highlighted in purple.


for the payout relay to power, the hopper cutoff relay switch needs to connect the payout relay coil to wire 70 - highlighted in red.


for no pays, a single point of failure is the hopper cutoff relay switch or the relay not being powered.   If you turn off the game and turn it on, the hopper cutoff relay will be unpowered.  To power it, you need to do one of:
- deposit a coin to get the handle release relay to trip
- push the reset button in the upper-right corner of the door opening


once the hopper cutoff relay powers, it should keep itself powered.  If it doesn't, that's a problem and suspect the capacitor.   If it does, check the switch with orange 70 wire and red/blue 12 wire on the blades on that relay.


I assume the cutoff relay is on/under the hopper.

[rjpohl]

Wolftalk, I did a couple of your suggestions today:

test is stick a voltmeter probe on orange wire 70 on the handle release coil (or any handy 50V coil) and the other probe on grey wire 90 on handle release relay switch.  You should see 50V after the reels have been spun regardless of where the reels wind up.    I did have 50V

set up a single cherry win on the reels and pull out the reel mech.  Use an ohmeter with probes on wire 90 and 13 on the reel mech plugs (see plug chart on schem and verify the wire colors on plug).  You should get almost zero ohms.  Open circuit

[wolftalk]

open circuit is surprising ... the game not paying any wins implies a single point of failure that would affect all wins.  The 1088 is a buy-pays machine that pays left-right and right-left.
Wire 90 is only used for cherry wins and it seems unlikely circuits connected to wires 91 and 93 also have a problem.  You're sure you were on wires 90 and 13 on the plug? 
 
here's a more thorough test which is the usual method of tracing a payout problem thru the reels.  Set up a single cherry (at least) on reel 1 and yank the reel mech again.


stick one probe on wire 90 on the plug pin, and look at the green line on the schem on the previous post.  Wire 90 goes to reel wiper board on reel 3.  Stick other probe there...got zero ohms?


if yes, you can leave one probe on 90 on the pin or reel 3 wiper board and put other probe on wire 90 on reel 1 wiper board.  Still zero ohms?


if yes, move probe from wire 90 on reel 1 to wire 13 on reel 1.  Still zero ohms?


if yes, move probe from wire 13 on reel 1 to wire 13 on the plug, which you previously found as open circuit.  If still open, the wire is probably busted at the back of the plug pin.


if you're having trouble telling the wire colors, the w-1041-2685-2687 doc is the reel wiper diagram (below) will show you where the wires are.

the typical reasons the payout circuits don't work thru the reel wipers are:
1] the rivets are cruddy
2] one or more of the wiper arms are misaligned and the wiper contacts are on the wrong rivets
3] rarely a wiper finger is lifted off the rivets


for [2], you can set all the reels to cherries and look at the diagram to see what rivets the wipers should be on.  The diagram is drawn looking at the wiring side of the contact plate.

[rjpohl]

Am I right to understand that the problem is somewhere within the reel mech since there was not continuity from the early test (plug wires 90 to 13)? 

[wolftalk]

Am I right to understand that the problem is somewhere within the reel mech since there was not continuity from the early test (plug wires 90 to 13)?

ummm ... maybe.


if you have a cherry on reel 1 and/or reel 3 and you don't have near zero ohms between 90 and 13 on the plug pins, then yes, that's a problem on the reel mech.


problem is that doesn't explain why you'd get no pay for other stuff.   For example, you should see almost zero ohms with these reel combos in either direction:


2-coin
-------
OR-OR-BA - pays 10 : wires 91 and 27


PL-PL-BA - pays 14 : wires 91 and 41


BE-BE-BA - pays 18 : wires 91 and 51


3 coin
-------
BA-BA-BA - jackpot : wires 93 and 81


2 coin and 3 coin pays thru the reels are different circuit paths that sometimes use the same wiper fingers on the reel wipers, but the pay in two directions would mean you'd need more than one problem in the reels to have nothing pay. 

it's possible someone mispositioned all the reel wipers.  Stick the reels on CH-CH-CH and send pics of the reel wipers as best you can if the drawing doesn't make sense.

[GOS]

no payouts at all - check the handle release relay - 90 wire goes thru there

[DavidLee]

Check the beau plugs for pins or sockets that might of been pushed out of position.


Also wiper arm contacts for proper alignment.



If you set up a three bells by hold - releasing the clock fan and there’s no payout.
Try rocking the reels up and down one at a time. This moves the wiper arm which in turn
activates a payout.




The payout relay could need some attention.
Check the wires/contacts that control the hopper motor in the payout relay stack.
These are usually white/blue or sometimes solid green.


I find it best to check the mechanics first. In some cases it saves a lot of time tracing circuits.
These circuits will never have continuity if the circuit is mechanically open.
But on the other hand sometimes the only way to find a mechanical open is through tracing.

[wolftalk]

no payouts at all - check the handle release relay - 90 wire goes thru there

he measured 50V on wire 90 on the handle release relay.


could be a problem between there and wire 90 on the reels, but he has an issue with continuity between 90 and 13 on the reel mech only.  Still doesn't explain why all payouts have an issue tho.

[DavidLee]

Payout Relay, hopper motor needs to start for payouts to begin.

[rjpohl]

I've brought this machine home and have the reel assemble in my office.
 
I rechecked for continuity from on plug #90 to plug #13, circuit is open  See  3rd pic of plug with pins I used for test


there are 2 wires soldered to the rear of pin 90.  One is orange with a red strip and one is orange with red circles (see pic).  also the one with red strip was loose/cut but I don't see the other end.  The one with the red circles around it go to the switch on left side of reels (see pic).


Thanks for all the help, I feel like it's got to be close to working!

[rjpohl]

I've given you guys so bad info because I've been using the wrong pins for 90 & 13.  I looked at back side and found the 13 and 90 and there is continuity between them.   How do you know which pin is #1 on the plug pictured in previous reply.  When you look at the schematic are they showing the plug from pin side or solder joint side.

[wolftalk]

I've given you guys so bad info because I've been using the wrong pins for 90 & 13.  I looked at back side and found the 13 and 90 and there is continuity between them.   How do you know which pin is #1 on the plug pictured in previous reply.  When you look at the schematic are they showing the plug from pin side or solder joint side.

if I could remember that ... :-)  David probably knows.  I always have to look at the wiring side of a plug or socket and figure out the orientation of the plug chart on the schematic.


you can pretty much ignore all my posts above.  Next check is to look and see if the payout relay is powering.  If you can't see it easily thru a cutout in the hopper, then watch the "insert coin" light.  If it turns on at the end of the spin and stays on when you have a winner, the payout relay didn't power. 


if the insert coin light turns off, the payout relay probably is powered and your issue is getting the hopper turned on like David mentioned.  Could be the redundant payout relay switches with the white and white/blue wires on them need cleaning, or the hopper cutoff relay is not powered.  Try holding in the reset pushbutton (usually in top/right corner of door opening on a metal bracket).


if you can see the hopper cutoff relay - there will be a resistor, diode and capacitor near or strapped to it - look and see if the relay is powered and check the switch with the orange and red/blue wires on the blades.  Should be closed when the relay is powered.

[rjpohl]

I might have stumbled across the problem(s).  I pulled hopper and noticed a 4wires broken loose.


Picture 1:
gray wire that I'm pretty certain broke loose from the connection above and slightly right or it.
the green wire is broken loose but I'm not certain where it came loose from. Green goes to pin 4 on hopper


Picture 2:
white/blue broken off connection right above it (at least I'm pretty certain that's where it came loose from)
white/yellow wire is loos but I'm not sure from where.  White/Yellow goes to hopper pin 8.


re-soldering wires should be a easy task, just want to be sure I put them back correctly.


thanks
Bob