No Payouts 1088

[DavidLee]

As previously mentioned.
The payout relay could need some attention. Check the wires/contacts that control the hopper motor in the payout relay stack.These are usually white/blue or sometimes solid green.

That is odd and rarely happens. Possibly the wires got caught on something and yanked off.

A schematic or photo would be a good reference.
In some case a little investigation with hi-powered magnifying head gear will help relocate wire position(s).
Wires/solder joints will match up, also the colors will indicate a position.

I’ll check later for a photo of the payout relay for a 1088.

[rjpohl]

I added info about the 2 loose wires in reply 19 go to on hopper plug. 

[DavidLee]

Photos of payout relay wires.

[rjpohl]

David, can you verify that the white/yellow wire solders where the red circle in pic is?  That's what I think I see in your pics.

[rjpohl]

David,
can you verify that the green wire and grey w/white solder to tab circled red in pic?

[wolftalk]

David, can you verify that the white/yellow wire solders where the red circle in pic is?  That's what I think I see in your pics.

below is the schematic.


the yellow/brown wire is 36 and connects to two payout relay switches ... the bare wire connecting two blades together on the left.


one blade on the right should have a white/yellow wire 53-2 on it, and the other should have black/green wire 84.  If the switch contacts are the same type, it doesn't matter which switch has 53-2 and which has 84.  When the relay powers, 53-2, 84 and 36 are all connected together thru two different switches.


in david's pic, 53-2 is on the bottom switch and 84 is on the switch above it. 


in your pic, it looks like 84 is on the bottom and it kinda looks like it's connected to both switch blades ... is it?  If not, then 53-2 connects to the blade above the one with 84. 


except for jumper wires - usually solid black - two wires of different colors are almost never connected directly together.  When they did it, they labeled it "TIE" on the schematic.


if you don't have a total out meter, then 53-2 isn't used and can be left disconnected. 


your main issue was the white/blue wire broken off ... that's wire 52 and is the 120V power wire to the hopper motor.

[DavidLee]

Photos

[DavidLee]

1 more photo.


AI turned the photos 90°

[wolftalk]

David,
can you verify that the green wire and grey w/white solder to tab circled red in pic?

a green wire would be 40 or 40-x.  A grey/white wire would be 95 or 95-x.

does the relay have a label?  If not, look at the wire colors on the relay coil to match to the schem.  Since your pic doesn't show the coil, a bit of hunting around for things that have those wire colors and a switch blade with a 47 ohm resistor attached finds the relay is the delay relay in the 120V circuit.

the grey/white wire is 95 and attaches to the switch with the other grey/white wire segment and resister as you circled, the green wire 40 goes to the bare wire connecting the two blades to the left of 95.

while I was typing david posted pics showing that. 

those wires look cut to intentionally disable the safety timeout that prevents dumping all the coins in the hopper if there's a payout issue.  You may want to leave them disconnected and verify the game is working, because if you reconnect them and there's an issue with the delay relay or safety motor, you'll  have the game shutting down during payout.

as a caution, when you are looking at pics of someone else's game, verify the model number is exactly the same.  (e.g. a 1088 and 1088-1 can be wired differently).  Then because serial plates and guts are sometimes swapped around, look at all the wiring you can see and make sure it matches.  In this case, it looked like wire 84 on the payout relay is different.  You are then rolling the dice on whether it works, and could fry a coil if really unlucky.


if your only problem was the broken white/blue wire not turning on the hopper motor, what should have happened when you got a winner is:


1] the game will not accept coins, so it's kinda locked up


2] the safety timer would eventually trigger and the game would completely shut down except a red neon light behind the hopper.  You know why that didn't happen :-)

[rjpohl]

I was able to figure out where all the wires went with exception of white/yellow.  I put hopper in and it is making payouts and for the most part they are correct (I know it's adding an extra coin on many payouts but that's a problem for another day).


I can see in one of David's pics where his white/yellow is but my machine seems to be a bit different. I might put a jumper on the it and try a few spins.


On the schematic in an earlier reply shows the yellow/white (53) going to a total out meter.  I have a small meter in top of glass by the winner's paid, and there's also a counter in the front of reel #1.  Are either of these the total out meter?


Only real problem I had playing and paying was every 5 or 6 time I insert 1st coin the handle would not release and doesn't register the 2nd or 3rd coin.  I have to manually release handle a few times and then it's make to playing right for a few spins.


thanks all all your patience and help, greatly appreciated!!!!
Bob

[DavidLee]

The total out is below the first reel.


The extra coin could be linked to the coin pivot roller / arm.
Roller pivot contacts might be to close.
Set up a payout and observe what happens to the last coin near the pivot roller.
One could be slipping by or sticking in the chute.


Or the payout odds unit might need to be advanced slightly.
Thus causing the contacts to move off the metal strips one coin sooner.


Coin switch first link is the payout relay bottom left of the hopper.
The contacts might need cleaning.


BUT, try this first. Play the machine as best as possible for a good 30 minutes.
This will help free up any old lubricant and burn some of the contamination off the contacts.
It might run better afterwards.

[wolftalk]

On the schematic in an earlier reply shows the yellow/white (53) going to a total out meter.  I have a small meter in top of glass by the winner's paid, and there's also a counter in the front of reel #1.  Are either of these the total out meter?

david already answered, but the snarky answer is the total out meter is the one with the white/yellow 53-2 wire on it :-)

I didn't include enough on the schem chunk above, but if you have the entire schem downloaded, the total out meter has 53-2 on one terminal and 63-2 on the other, so the sanity check is verify the other wire on the meter is brown/yellow.

brown is a awkward color ... sometimes it looks more tan than brown.

I think david covered everything else, yell if not.  One addition is whether you have the new or old style hopper.  If the hopper motor is under the hopper, it's new style and there's a brake mechanism on the motor rotor that can get sticky.  It needs to move freely as it's job is to immediately stop the rotor when the power is turned off.  That prevents the motor from coasting to a stop and possibly ejecting an extra coin.

someone recently dealt with a sticky brake and included pictures, so a search should pop it up.

old style hoppers have an arm with a plastic golf ball attached to detect coin level, new style hoppers use weight to determine when hopper is full.

[rjpohl]

I do have the new style hopper, I'll check out the sticky brake topic.
I've been using a business card to clean the switches, can you guys recommend a better cleaning method.  Also I think I saw some tool/file for the beau plugs, any suggestions?  I'm guessing I have a few switches that need to be cleaned better since the handle doesn't release every time and the winner paid light didn't always come on after a win.
I hope it warms up a bit today so I can play/test the slot.
Bob

[rjpohl]

I played it for about 15 minutes before the cold got to me.  I was only playing one coin at a time.  Major problem is after a few spins the insert coin does not light, when I insert coin the coin accepted light comes on but handle does not release.  I have to manually release handle to spin, it may take one or two times manually releasing handle before the insert coin light comes back on.  As soon as it does then the handle is released after coining up.


I cleaned all the switches on hopper, I'm going to bring payout unit in house and clean those switches now.


Bob

[wolftalk]

contact condition:
--------------------

if the switch contacts are:


- coated with a dry black powder, you don't need to do anything to clean them


- wet/oily or looking like they are shellacked, clean with a solvent like denatured alcohol.  You can also use a "plaststone" (see tools below).


- pitted/burned and are larger "hockey puck" shaped, you can file.  Put a file between and put pressure on.  You want to file both surfaces at the same time so they are parallel, and file until the contacts are flat and shiny. 


- pitted/burned and smaller contacts with one side domed and one side flat.   If they are gold colored, you're not really supposed to file these as they are "flashed" and filing will remove the surface coating.  However, if they are damaged to the point of not working, you have nothing to lose by trying.   Eventually you replace the blade with a new contact.


-------------------------------------------
tools - get from pinball parts suppliers:
-------------------------------------------


- switch adjuster.   A kit with a few shapes is handy if you can find one ... like this:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-SWK


- contact file
http://www.pbresource.com/tools.html

- plaststone (optional)
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-PLAST


---------------------
adjusting switches:
---------------------


- make sure the two screws fastening the stack are snug.  Snug the one closest to the switch blades first.   Don't crank too hard on them, they are soft and you can shear them. 


- use a switch adjuster tool right next to the stack to bend the non-moving blades.  If you use needlenose pliers or a flat screwdriver, again bend where the blade enters the stack.  If someone kinked the blades along their length, make sure they can't short to adjacent blades


- the goal of adjusting switches is to have "overtravel".  After the contact touch, the moving blade keeps going a little and pushes the other blade a bit.  This causes the contacts to slide across each other ... like your finger and thumb when you snap your fingers.  Makes a good, self-cleaning mechanical connection.  Overtravel works when the moving blade is being pulled/pushed by something like the slotted lifter on a relay.   Sometimes it's just blade tension pressing against another another blade and you can't get obvious overtravel.


- occasionally you need to bend the moving blade.  Use common sense.


- if a thinner blade has a fatter movement limiting bar blade next to it, the thin blade should lie pretty flat against the limit bar when the switch is open.




there must be youtube videos of all this stuff :-)  Usually when people have flaky switch behavior it's due to lack of overtravel. 

[DavidLee]

The machine won’t operate perfectly in colder climate.


Payout relay bottom left of the reels mechanism needs attention.
I might of said hopper in my last post, my mistake.


If the machine is in colder climate, let it set turned on for 30 minutes then play it.


Also check the coin in switch for freedom of movement. If it drags occasionally this might effect the handle release.

[rjpohl]

I had cleaned the payout relay and put reels back in but it still acted up every few spins.  I pulled the reels and connected them with jumper cables.  I played 15 or more spins and it seemed to be ok,  insert coin came back on after every spin, it accepted and registered the next coin, handle released and reels completed spin.  I've cleaned on the male beau pins but not the female side.  I'll try some electrical cleaner on them tomorrow and I may try to get it to a warm place. 
I'm going to look into buying something to clean them.
Bob

[DavidLee]

Okay,


Seems everything is in working order.
Just the infrequent glitch, could be the climate.
The best indicator that the machine is completely warmed up, the reels glass will be warm.

[rjpohl]

I had reels out and connected with the jumpers.  Whenever it goofed up, I would just cycle by pushing the air shock to spin the reels, usually after 3 or 4 times the insert coin light will come back on and then would accept coins.  I put reels back in and played until the problem came back, I then pulled/pushed on air shock and the insert light would come on.  Must be a problem with the set on switches behind air shock.  I've cleaned and am pretty sure they are adjusted properly.  I sprayed some electrical cleaner on them and then played for 10 minutes, seems to be getting better with the more I play it (which David had suggested/hinted).
I'm going to move it in the next few days to a warmer spot, that should help too.
thanks
Bob

[wolftalk]

the switch behind the air cylinder is the dashpot switch.  That may cause problems with handle release, but it's not in the circuits for the insert coin lamp.


what is in the circuit and would jiggle if you messed with the main shafts via the air cylinder are the reel C switches on the left side.   C switches are vertical ... the ones in your second pic on the initial post.


can't see what wire colors are connected to the blades, but the lamp switch would have red/black and brown/yellow wires on the blades ... probably.


if you can run the reels outside the cabinet, when you have the problem poke the C switches.  You can use your finger, there's no 120V on any of them.  If that's not comfortable, use a chopstick or other wood/plastic thing to nudge the blades.


I guess if you have grease that is too thick at lower temps, that could affect where the C switches wind up a little bit, but it's more likely a dirty switch or one that's barely closing most of the time.