Bally 809 underpaying

[Lee Pfeifer]

Thank you Sir . I will inspect and report back .

[Lee Pfeifer]

WOLFTALK,
Again Sir Thank you for your help , I just cleaned that area you mentioned in the diagram above ( part number 55 ) the leaf switches had a little dirt / black stuff on them , I super cleaned it and now I’ll run a few hundred coins through and I’ll circle back and let you know if there is a change on my 809 underpaying.
Thank you,
LEE

[Lee Pfeifer]

Jim ,
Thank you for your response, I just now saw it , I was called away on business. Anyways I still have a underpay situation, and on my payout counter I don’t have the Allen wrench and the little sticky bumper , mine has a 5/16 bolt and a lopsided looking black washer that rotates and well anyway I’m still stuck with the underpays about HALF of the time , but I totally dig what you are saying and I’ll meditate on this and I’ll share my discovery when it happens,
Thank you,
LEE

[Lee Pfeifer]

Skater ,
I just now read your question, ( is it underpaying on all five coins ) yes it is but I know why it’s underpaying on second, third , fourth and fifth coin ( the little pinball reels in the upper unit are dirty ) I’ve been through this with my 1090 , initially I though the across the board underpays were not related to the pinball reels , but I only can fix one thing at a time so at this time I’m tackling the single coin underpays.

[DavidLee]

Nice video / demonstration on the payout step up unit.
I’m not at a machine right at the moment to preform the same test.
But from memory for example on the 5 coin payout.
The coins are paid out when the contacts are on the metal receiver strips.
As soon as the contacts step off the strip the knife kicks coins and motor stops.


In your test the contacts left the strips after coin four, thus no coin five could be dispensed.


At this point I would adjust the spiral cam stop to allow the cam to move further back.
This would be a simple adjustment that may resolve the coin problem.

[wolftalk]

my understanding of the problem currently is that it intermittently pays correctly about half the time, +1 or -1 coin the other times.  Happens for different payout amounts, so a single trace/wiper contact on the payout counter isn't the problem.


multiplier pays when 2+ coins played were consistent  ... e.g. 3 coins played and the mispay was +/- 3, implying the payout counter was missing a step or making an extra one.


if the zero stop is allowing the wipers to reset too far, you'd expect an overpay or correct pay


if the zero stop didn't allow the wipers to reset far enough, you'd get underpay or correct pay.


an intermittent "correct pay" in the above cases could be caused by the payout counter wiper contacts falling off the edge of the trace.  Sometimes it makes the circuit, sometimes not.


problem is coming up with a reason why the zero stop setting could produce and underpay AND overpay.


'course, cruddy connections could cause an overpay and zero stop setting an underpay, so two problems at the same time.


it may also be possible the pawl adjustments are off and the stepping is not consistent. 

[Lee Pfeifer]

Wolf ,
There is also two 5/16 bolts on the wafer board on the payout counter and they can be loosened and wafer can be turned clockwise or counterclockwise 🔄 to move the fingers slightly back or slightly forward, mine is adjusted as far as it will go .
And keep in mind my zero stop bumper is not the Allen wrench type , but in a perfect world I could adjust the zero stop one direction and it would underpay by one and I could go the other direction and it would overpay by one and in a perfect world I could find the perfect spot between those two points , I’m just not there yet .

[Lee Pfeifer]

David Lee,
I think you are right , I’m trying to get there , please understand my zero stop bumper is not the normal one , mine looks like this

[DavidLee]

Cam stop adjustment is normal for the earlier type machines.
Make a mark on the rubber cam washer, extending it onto the metal carriage for a reference point.
This will make adjustments a lot easier.


In the past when I’ve worked on machines where there wasn’t any negative adjustment left.
Or for some reason the contacts wouldn’t move back far enough.
There is another way to achieve the same results.
  Simply arc the contact blades, thus bring them back just enough to preform properly.


Also check the return spring tension. If it’s weak, this also could be a problem.
Test by manually turning the cam about half way. Depress the reset plunger, it should retract without hesitation.

[Lee Pfeifer]

David,
Look above my leaf switches at the zero stop , there is a heavy metal blade above the leaf switches, that blade or position might be hampering our progress.
Bending the fingers is a good idea ! Would I just have to bend that lowest / first one ?

[wolftalk]

you may want to stop for a second and consider what messing with the zero stop can accomplish, especially considering your video showed the payout counter is operating correctly. 

The zero stop position and/or twisting the contact plate can cause an underpay OR an overpay, but NOT both unless there is a second problem working in conjunction with it.

if your game is ONLY underpaying, or ONLY overpaying, then ignore all the rest of the below.

keep in mind what the payout counter is doing ... the payout ends when the wiper contact steps off the electrically energized trace because the payout relay loses power, which in turn unpowers the hopper motor and override solenoid so no more coins come out.

on the 809, payout multiplication is done by electrically stepping the payout counter.  Not coincidently, the payout counter stepping rate is one step for every 1,2,3,4, or 5 coins ejected.

your video shows that stepping off the end of the traces are working correctly.  You can use your meter approach and when the penultimate and last step is done, wiggle the wipers a little and see if you disconnect/reconnect the circuit.  If so, that implies the wiper contacts are too close to the trace end and it may be intermittent....but that would give you either:
- correct or overpay if wipers didn't step off far enough
OR
-correct or underpay if penultimate step wipers are stepped too far. 

I can't think of a way you'd get underpay, overpay and correct pay with just one root cause except a flaky connection that causes missed pulses from the coin eject or creates extra ones, and that would not be on the payout counter contact plate, it would be in the payout counter step-up coil circuit.

that's the point of the jumper wire and manually lifting the coin eject roller.  You're looking to see if you can get the payout counter step-up coil to not step or step multiple times for each roller lift.  If you lift the roller really slowly, you may find a point where arcing/barely connecting causes the step-up coil to fire multiple times.  That would be normal, but really bad if that's the distance the coin lifted the roller.

you can ignore the below because it probably doesn't apply, but if you want to wrap your head around the whole thing, once you figure out what I'm talking about the mechanics may make sense.

---------- extra confusion below -------------

where things get a little more complicated is the way the unit physically steps.  There's a pawl on the step-up arm that pushes the ratchet/wipers around, and another pawl on the reset arm that prevents the ratchet from spinning back the other way (much) when the step-up coil powers.   In addition, when the unit is reset those pawls are lifted off the ratchet so it can spin to reset position freely, and then the zero stop is what is stopping ratchet rotation. 

if you push in the reset coil plunger and let go, it doesn't come back out of the coil all the way because the pawls are latched up off the ratchet.  At this point, you can spin the wipers with your finger counter-clockwise and let go.  They will whizz back to reset.

once reset, the first step flops both pawls onto the ratchet teeth and needs to grab the teeth correctly.    If you spin the wipers with your finger now, they will click-click-click as the pawls ride the teeth and stay put when let go.

a way off zero position could cause problems with which/how many teeth are grabbed in the first step.  In theory, you want to set the zero stop so there's a small gap between the reset pawl and a vertical ratchet tooth edge when the pawl flops down.  In practice, as long as the pawls don't flop down on the tip of a tooth so they could sometimes sit on the tip and sometimes fall off the edge, you're good.  The teeth are so small you'd need to be unlucky to set the zero stop at a place that caused a problem.  The first step will push the wipers around the right amount.

if you are happy with the pawls grabbing teeth and stepping ok, but the wiper contacts are too close to a trace end, you can loosen the contact plate and twist it a little to get the wipers off the trace at the appropriate step. 

if you are unlucky and have the zero stop off, one of the following can happen:

1] the first step doesn't push the ratchet around very far, so the wipers don't move much and all you did was get the pawls seated on the teeth correctly.  Result = overpay by one step

2] the first step grabbed two ratchet teeth instead of one, so the wipers moved too far.  Result = underpay by one step.

3] the pawls are lined up to the ratchet ok, but the initial wiper position is off by a full tooth.  Result = either overpay or underpay by one step, depending on which way the wipers are off. 

[Lee Pfeifer]

WolfTalk,
I finally understand the B switch and the zero switch, they serve to reset the payout counter and I understand that I can bend the zero switch closed .
I’ll use the VOM meter and the jumpers , and I’ll report back

[Lee Pfeifer]

Good morning!
I’m still battling with the 809 and it’s tendency to underpay , I’m exploring how to possibly remedy this mechanically. Here’s my video , I’ll share my progress and discoveries right here , this is my favorite group and my favorite place to hang out , thanks for all your help !!!!

https://youtu.be/V4VnmaJ3gFc

[wolftalk]

loosen the zero stop switch screws and twist the switch stack away from the outboard carriage (the big metal thing).  The top blade is not supposed to be lifted up like that.


does it matter?  Nope.  Wedged where it is it slightly changes the zero stop position, but that blade isn't connected to anything electrical, right (there's no wire on it)?


your initial video said that cherry paid 2, "sometimes 3, sometimes 1".


have you got it to only underpay now, or is it still paying +/- 1?

[DavidLee]

https://youtu.be/Z7YR-5ZER1I


Short video of step up unit out of working machine.


Like I mentioned before, contact blades can be bent to a greater arc as to make fine adjustments if needed.

[DavidLee]

The limiter blade on top of the switch stack needs to be moved as mentioned previously by wolftalk.
This is preventing the switch lever to ride up under the washer onto the black rubber cushion washer.
There’s probably another 16th + of movement that has been restricted.

[Lee Pfeifer]

Here’s the next video ,

https://youtu.be/yU06_7kolQ8

[Lee Pfeifer]

Watch the video above , removing that limiting plate fixed ALL payout issues , it was underpaying one coin when I would play one coin , it would underpay two coins when I played two coins three on three , four on four and it would short you five coins if you played five coins , I removed that plate and now everything pays like it should.
   Thank you to everyone who helped me walk through this and I’m so fortunate that I do not have to walk alone .
I’ll be here to answer any questions.
Thank you friends !
LEE

[DavidLee]

Nice work Lee.


Obstructions can go un-noticed for awhile. Somehow that limiter on your machine got knocked over.
Or someone thought it was suppose to be under the washer.


In the past working on Pinball machines with 100s of switches this is a common problem to look for.
And it might take a day or two to pinpoint.


Will see what happens next, hopefully nothing major.

[Lee Pfeifer]

David, I’ll run a 1000 coins through it and count each payout , and see through that test , what if anything needs attention.
Thank you for your assistance Sir !