Paying when it shouldn't with Bell problem

[ncrguy]

Hello All,
 Bringing this machine back to life, the coin in system works perfect now. machine takes coins and turns the lights on and off as it should. lock out coins after the 3rd coin puts in. pull the handle and it spins and pays when it should. lube, grease and sanding works wonders. now I'm waiting on new bulbs to be delivered so before I take things apart to do some deep cleaning to the door i figured i'd play it for a while and i discovered a few problems.


1. bell rings when it shouldn't (keeps ringing till you put coin in) playing 2 or 3 coins
2. if the 777 is hit the hopper doesn't stop at 200 (all other pay outs are good)
3. when playing 1 coin it pays when it shouldn't


I can assume that the 1st and 2nd are related to the hopper however its the 3rd problem which I which i'd like to ask as it seems like its going to tougher for a newbie to the world of EM's


I decide to only play one coin so only cherries, keep in mind the machine pays left to right and right to left only on center line.
cherries pay out perfect, 2-5-10 coins payout as it should playing one coin. As i playing it was paying 2 coin winning combos but as if it was playing 2 coins? I noticed a pattern and I need some advice where to start.


keeping in mind this is only one coin in
Doesn't do it for any 3rd coin pays the bars and 7's
Doesn't do it with 3 bells/plumbs/oranges
Doesn't do it with the ANYBAR in the 3rd wheel only the 1st ANYBAR with the 2 other bells/plumbs/oranges


Suggestions or questions are welcome, questions and photo requests will be answered. thank you in advance
 

[DavidLee]

Regarding 777 and bell, it’s possible there is a jackpot relay that’s not opening at 200 coins.
So the bell and hopper keep going. There might be a label identifying the jackpot relay.


The hopper has a payout relay located on the top, left, back side.



The bell and possibly the jackpot circuit past through this relay.
Remove the cover and manually activate the armature. Look to see if the closed contacts are opening and the open contacts are closing. Observer each set of contacts for proper functionality.


Contacts may appear to be closed, but still not making continuity. Recommend using a meter with a sound indicator for testing.

[ncrguy]

I think the problem with the jackpot is when the coil maxes out and won't advance anymore it doesn't clear the 200 contact.


The bell is annoying and i know it shouldn't be doing it... on a side not the bell was disconnected when I took ownership.


Everything in the hopper as far as switches and coils seem to be firing when they should i see them. its the paying out when it shouldn't tha is most cornering to me, I should of made that #1 other than #3

Regarding 777 and bell, it’s possible there is a jackpot relay that’s not opening at 200 coins.
So the bell and hopper keep going. There might be a label identifying the jackpot relay.


The hopper has a payout relay located on the top, left, back side.



The bell and possibly the jackpot circuit past through this relay.
Remove the cover and manually activate the armature. Look to see if the closed contacts are opening and the open contacts are closing. Observer each set of contacts for proper functionality.


Contacts may appear to be closed, but still not making continuity. Recommend using a meter with a sound indicator for testing.

[DavidLee]

You can manually rotate the payout step up unit to the end of the 200 strips.

This is where the power cuts off stopping the hopper and bell. Most likely by de-energizing the payout coil.

Then manually reset the unit by pushing in the reset coil plunger.


It should have enough force to return to 0 position.


Payout relay has a bit of oxidation on the screw heads. Contacts my have bit of oxidation also.


Some bells are wired through the wiper boards. Most of the time its a red wire that makes it way to the bell and jackpot light.

[ncrguy]

  Payout relay has a bit of oxidation on the screw heads. Contacts my have bit of oxidation also. 


Took the advice and cleaned the contacts on payout wheel, checked the alignment of arm and sure enough the machine now pays winning combos as it should and stops the hopper and pay's from 2 to 200 perfect as it should, with 3 coins in it....{still has bell issues} 


 However ANYBAR on 1st reel with two Bells/Orange/Plumb on reel 2 and 3. should only pay with 2 coins not one.


 This machine pays left to right and right to left both ways, and with one coin in it will NOT pay is its Bells/Orange/Plumb on reel 1 and 2 with the ANYBAR on 3, which it would with 2 coins in it or 3.


interesting observations about bell problem


Rings on winning and a few non winning combos and it DOES NOT stop ringing till you put a coin in...
EXCEPT
when it pays the winning combo of ANYBAR on reel 1 with two Bells/Orange/Plumb on reel 2 and 3 when playing ONE coin. The bell rings, pays out the correct payout and then bell stops ringing.
IF YOU PLAY 2 OR 3 COINS IT PAYS BUT BELL DOES NOT TURN OFF and it has to be ANYBAR if its a 7 or fruit it doesn’t pay.


ALSO if 3 coins (not for 1 or 2) are in and there is a cherry on the 3rd reel which is a winning pay, the bell starts and never stops and that is the only time the bell will ring on a cherry win. It will ring for 3 cherries also cherry on 1 anything on 2 and cherry on 3. which i think it shouldn't be ringing at all but again this is with 3 coins only.

[DavidLee]

Okay, good to hear you're making progress.

From the description of the remaining problems.

I would take a close look at the reel wiper boards wiring, wiper boards and wipers.

Check the wiring for any loose crossed strands of wire. These crossed wires will make up there own circuitry. 

Look for any resent non factory soldering and or any solder that crossed onto another connection.
(Had a pinball machine that had some rough / oversize soldering, a big drip was touching its neighbor.)
Took a while to see the obvious in this case.

Check the silver jumper wires, these also can get move accidentally and cause problems.

Inspect the wiper arm blades and contacts. These can become bent and touch the wrong contact button.
The wiper arm itself might be out of alignment.  Check alignment for every stop.
Most cases the contacts will stop near the center of its corresponding button/rivet.
If one arm looks to be out of adjustment, compare it with the other two before making any changes.

Also take a look at the wiring on the Beau-Plugs, bottom inside reel chassis.
These wires can get moved around and cause problems.

NOTE
The aid of a bright flashlight and headgear magnifiers,
really makes a big difference in seeing abnormalities. 

 



 

[OldReno]

It is possible someone changed a wiper arm and forgot to make the cuts to separate the 6v bell circuit from the 50v pay circuits. The bell line is generally the bottom 2 rows of wired contacts, and if not cut might make your bell ring (real LOUD probably) when a pay or partial pay is sensed through the boards
The 2 circuits must be separated.
The clue here is when next coin inserted, bell stops because you have cut off pay circuit after coin is accepted.
To test, when bell is ringing, push back on variator timing bar to open pay line. Bell should stop.

[ncrguy]

what is the


"push back on variator timing bar to open pay line"


where can i find that?  that but the coin in relays on the side of the reels?


 

[OldReno]

The variator is above the clock/fan and controls the ‘C’ switches. The C switches being open kills power to the reel boards thus stopping any pays. The idea behind this is to keep machine from starting to pay while any reels are still spinning. Push the variator back during any pay and the pay stops.
By pay line, I meant the switches in circuit [in line) on the schematics to power the reel boards.
Bad choice of words.

[wolftalk]

what is the full model number on the plate below the handle?

[ncrguy]

as far as model number goes, there was this...
http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=24880.0


Yes when you push on that arm and its ringing, the ringing will stop.

[wolftalk]

as far as model number goes, there was this...
http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=24880.0

yeah, but you never responded to the last post.   Your m-645-144 payout board in your pics was used in a lot of machines.  To narrow down what the game is - or what it was originally - numbers off the slotted metal reel index discs may be helpful.  if nothing else, I may have info to match them to the wiper contact board wiring diagrams.


the bell on many machines only rings for a jackpot and as oldreno said goes thru the reel wipers to complete a circuit onto wire 45 on a payout relay switch.  However, some machines will ring the bell any time the payout relay is powered, so it rings for the duration of all payouts.


if you have payout issues, the more likely thing is a problem with the reel wipers and/or wiring and the bell is just a side affect.

[OldReno]

The 6v bell circuit is usually on the lowest two rows of used buttons on your reel boards. With reels out look at wired side of the boards then look at your wipers. There should be a cut in the back of the wipers separating the circuits. Perhaps someone put on a new wiper assembly and forgot to make that cut.
But then it could be something else entirely too, and if it is annoying you can either disconnect the bell or stuff a matchbook between clapper and gong. That’s an easy quick fix unless you’re a purist. And that’s ok too!!

[DavidLee]

If the bell wire in routed through one of the bottom contact rows on the wiper boards.
Check the corresponding contacts on those rows.
It’s possible that one or more are bent and making contact with more than one button.
Or making contact with the common.


Also the machine could be wired to ring on every pay.

[ncrguy]

The reels are stamped

LEFT 684 467
CENTER 684 468
RIGHT 684 469

[ncrguy]

cleaned boards and wiper arms, rubbed gun oil on the contacts. unfortunately still having pay outs on one coin with Anybar-Bell-Bell

[Jim]

does your machine use two payout devices?  the hopper and a different one to the right of the hopper?   

[ncrguy]

does your machine use two payout devices?  the hopper and a different one to the right of the hopper?   

No only one and all payouts from 2 to 200 work great.

[Jim]

typically the step up unit in the top box directs the 90 wire (grey) to the specific wiper fingers ,this is a ground signal that works its way through the wiper fingers and onto the payout field on the hopper, ( it provides this ground through the wipers, the payout field and energizes the payout relay which will turn on the hopper unit the step up unit counts the line activated through the wipers). none of the 2 and 3 coin  wiper fingers should be active for a single coin, you should set up the any bar, bell, bell  and inspect the grey wire that would activate this pay out there might be a wiper off the contact enough that it is hitting the one next to it.  that would be the only logical way that line could be getting that signal, especially since no others will do it on the single coin.

hope this helps

Jim

[ncrguy]

typically the step up unit in the top box directs the 90 wire (grey) to the specific wiper fingers ,this is a ground signal that works its way through the wiper fingers and onto the payout field on the hopper, ( it provides this ground through the wipers, the payout field and energizes the payout relay which will turn on the hopper unit the step up unit counts the line activated through the wipers). none of the 2 and 3 coin  wiper fingers should be active for a single coin, you should set up the any bar, bell, bell  and inspect the grey wire that would activate this pay out there might be a wiper off the contact enough that it is hitting the one next to it.  that would be the only logical way that line could be getting that signal, especially since no others will do it on the single coin.

hope this helps

Jim

sorry that I forgot i always mention the BAR/bell/bell but its is also these pay lines, I will inspect the machine per your suggestion but i didn't know if this would change anything.