809 count unit

[Herbie21]

Hi boys,


about the 809, what exactly is the count unit for, what does it do and how is it linked with the jackpot pay-outs, I have a schematic but can't figure it out. My machine pays out well, only the jackpot meter does not work (something with the count unit?)


thanks Herbie

[wolftalk]

are you able to take the wipers and contact plate off and take pictures of the wiring side of the plate from back far enough to see the wire colors attached to the lugs?


the only way to understand exactly what it does (and how it does it) is to have the diagram of the unit.  I can make one if you supply the pictures.  Also, picture of the ratchet/gear side of the unit at reset is good to have.


the big picture is the game will pay 200 (I assume) coins on a jackpot win and then lock up so an attendant can pay the remainder of the win directly to the player in cash.  That creates an accounting problem because money left the game without being recorded on a coin-out meter.   Bally's solution, which was rarely used, was to add a jackpot meter that incremented during the payout of the 200 coins and recorded the amount of the jackpot win.


obvious problem is that if the jackpot win was 1000 coins and the most you have is 200 pulses coming from ejected coins, you can't add 800 to a jackpot meter and have the simple rule that total machine coin out = coin out meter + jackpot meter.


instead, the jackpot meter represents buckets of X number of coins.  Afaik, X is 100.  So if you had a 1000 coin win, the jackpot meter would increment 8 times while the game paid 200 coins and the math is:
   total machine payout = coin out meter + (jackpot meter * 100)


the count unit steps up every time a coin is ejected and is looking at the odds unit to determine the payout amount.  The wiper on the count unit connects the circuit to the jackpot meter and causes the jackpot meter to increment if necessary.

[Herbie21]

thanks Wolf,


I understand, so my machine will pay out automatically max 300, 3x 1bar-1bar-1bar. all other max is only 200 and the machine blocks it self.


I did the 400 payouts and the payout was 200 with the coint unit ending at step 33. What moves the step up of the count unit?


My jackpot meter didn't move maybe it is broken, will check.


I want to convert the machine to payout all prizes, and ik look like easy to do so. My hopper can keep more than 1000 coins, can you imagine a payout of 1000!


thanks Herbie

[Herbie21]

sorry i meant 2bar-2bar-2bar x 3 times,

[wolftalk]

you understood my reply #1?  If so, what were you drinking and how much so other people can try it :-)


the count unit steps up every time the payout counter steps up until an open-at-X switch on the side of the unit opens.  Your X is 33.




which 809 model is it?  You may be able to change wiring on the odds disc to prevent the jackpot lockup relay(s) from powering, and that will let the game pay higher numbers of coins.  Some thought would be needed to change the jackpot meter wiring if you wanted that to be correct.  'course, if the game paid in coin for everything, the jackpot meter would never be used.

tmi below:
------------


the big limiting factor on coin payout is the number of steps the payout counter can physically make.  I think the answer is around 250. For a machine to coin pay higher than that, bally did it two ways:


1] mechanically stepped payout counter


in this case, the payout coins steps up once for every coin ejected.  Only option is to reset the payout counter and pay again.


afaik, these are all multiplier machines that increase the payout for every coin played, and an odds follower unit is keeping track of the number of times the game resets the payout counter - which makes the game pay again.


2] electrically stepped payout counter


an ejected coin only closes hopper switch(es) and the payout counter is stepped up by a coil powering.  By sticking units between the hopper switches and step-up coil, bally could make the payout counter step once for every X coins ejected, where X=[1,2,3,4,5] on the 809.


there's a few oddball games that have payout counters that are both mechanically AND electrically stepped.  Those games are operator selectable to pay coins or add credits to a replay register.  They could have just gone with electrically stepping on those games, but they didn't for some reason.

[Herbie21]

Hi Wolf,


It's not so easy, at least for me, but I want to understand, a beer or two helps sometimes.


My machine is a 809-9ZZR (Harrods) and with an electrically stepped payout counter, making the payout counter step for every X coins ejected , there should be no problem for the 809 to payout 500, 600, 800 or 1000 coins, I will do some rewiring. Coming back to the origional situation, when the payout is more than 300 (200 for th 3bar-3bar-3bar) the payout counter setup arm will power the count unit during the 200 steps till step 33, powering the jackpot meter adding 2,3,4,6 or 8 numbers depending on the multiplier and 2 or 3 bars prize, meaning the amount missing x 100 to be payout by attendent. This means the begin amount of the meter should be noted somewhere in the machine for the attendent to calculate?


I will repair my meter just to see if this all is correct. Than I will rewire for an avalance on coins hitting 3bar-3bar-3bar paying 5 coins.


cheers and thanks for your reply, Herbie

[wolftalk]

I don't remember your glass info, so below is assuming that your game pays 200 coins then locks up for any jackpot pay ... it may pay more coins for some multiplied non-jackpot win.  Sounds like your game will jackpot lockup at 200, but will pay 300 for another win.

the meters are just for accounting/auditing whenever they feel like it (or required by local regulations), they aren't used for daily operation.


when the game does a jackpot lockup, the attendant just looks at the win on the reels and subtracts the 200 coins from it to see how much cash the player is owed.


while the game is capable of paying more in coins, they picked 200 for jackpot lockup ... at least on almost all 809 models I have schems for.   I'd guess the thought is if you are going to hand-pay anyway, no point in needing a hopper fill as well.   Plus 200 was the normal max the payout counter could handle without multiplying tricks.

[Herbie21]

Thanks Wolf


makes sense for the casino the machine only to carry so many coins as needed. I my home situation my aim is to fill the hopper to the max, I recon it can hold more than 1500 (I have 400 coins till now)


Anyway how great it would be that when my hopper is full And I hit the 1000 it will payout 1000!


I fixed it by making the following changes on the odd unit, fairly staight forward and easy:


step one disconnect the two jackpot lock up relays:


the 54-7 for #2 and the 41-1 for #1


now make a jumper between 57-1 abnd 81
and a jumper between 41-1 and 54


I tested and it works lots of fun!

[wolftalk]

you mean 57-4 instead of 54-7 and 57-1?


sounds like your hooking up the 100 and 200 pay traces on all wins and disabling the jackpot lockup relays. 


I guess if you want to be flexible, you could attached a molex plug to lugs for wires 57-4 and 41-1 on the odds disk and have two sockets - one connects the original wires for jackpot lockup and the other looped back to 81 / 54 for coin pay all wins.


using plugs to configure the game was common on later model machines.

[Herbie21]

Hi Wolf, you are right; typo!


disconnect 57-4 from odds unit, 57-4 on the odds unit jumper to 81 wire on odds unit and
disconnect 41-1 from odds unit, 41-1 on the odds unit jumper to 54 wireon odds unit.


The plug is an good idea, will do it!


thanks again