Bally 809 underpaying

[Lee Pfeifer]

Bally 809

It’s under paying by one and sometimes two , on the first coin Column , if anyone has any info on that I would appreciate it

[Lee Pfeifer]

Here’s my Dilemma .... please help me if you can
Bally 809 not paying properly.

The first column is underpaying by one , the second column is underpaying by two , the third column is underpaying by three , the fourth column is underpaying by four .
Why is that

[Lee Pfeifer]

The machine is great but it underpays one coin if you play one coin, it underpays TWO coins if you play two coins , it underpays THREE coins if you play three coins & it underpays FOUR coins if you play four coins .
Please point me in the right direction.

[Lee Pfeifer]

Here’s my video of my payout counter , as far as I can see this is preforming correctly .
My machine is underpaying, does anyone have any tips ?
https://youtu.be/lHYv9jwjvMs

[Lee Pfeifer]

I did scan through there , thank you . I’m still having the same problem, consistent underpays .

[shortrackskater]

It is underpaying on all plays: one through five coins?

[Jim]

the only item in the machine that determines the payout count is the item you showed in your u tube video.  your counter has to be adjusted at reset, from that point each pulse of the count up coil will move the fingers one position, so for example, a five coin payout, would be the first four finger moves would be on the field, the last pulse would put the fingers off the payout field and into a void. (area in between the foil count fields)this void is what actually stops the count,  so each time you reset it two things have to happen, 1, it resets to the same position each and every time, the zero stop switch should be open, 2, as soon as the first pulse is complete the  zero stop switch has to close immediately ,no delay, IMMEDIATELY!. 

YOU MAY HAVE TO REMOVE THAT COUNTER BAR IN ORDER TO SEE JUST WHERE THE RESET POSITION IS.  the method for making that adjustment is using the allen set screw and nut on top of the zero stop switch.  make sure the zero stop rubber material is not gummy or sticky, if it is beginning to break down this could also be your problem?

hope this helps

Jim

 

[wolftalk]

since the 809 is a multiplier machine, the payout counter is electrically stepped.


your video shows the the wipers on the payout counter are behaving - at least for a 5 pay and you said a 10 pay also steps off the 10 trace at the 10th step.


there's still a possible mechanical issue, tho, and I'd check that first.  If the initial step of the unit is grabbing two teeth on the payout counter ratchet, the effect will be like the unit stepped twice.  May be worth backing off the zero step adjust a little to let the wipers move a little more clockwise at reset.  Do your checking again manually stepping to make sure the wipers step off the appropriate traces at the right count.


another sanity check is to make the circuit work electrically and see what's going on.  Since it's a pita to close the payout relay and you don't want the hopper running, easiest thing is jumper wire 30 to wire 15-2 (the red/white wire on the coin eject switches on the hopper.)  Every time you lift the coin eject roller with your finger, the payout counter should step assuming the odds disc is reset.  It'll step as appropriate for higher odds too, and so will the X[2-5] units.


That'll let you electrically step the unit and look at where the wipers are after whatever step you like.



if it's not that, it implies the payout counter is stepping up when it shouldn't, and you can verify after a short pay that the wipers are off the correct trace.


reset/coin the game and yank the hopper without spinning the reels.   If you push in the reset solenoid plunger, do the wipers move towards reset ... i.e. did the payout counter step once?


if no, play a game without winning and yank the hopper.  Payout counter stepped?


if yes for either, you'll need to track down where that step-up pulse came from.   




theory:
--------
the only place a payout counter step up pulse is supposed to come from is the two redundant switches on the hopper that close as a coin is ejected.  If one has such a small gap that the payout counter is stepping as soon as the payout relay powers due to arcing, that could be the problem.


if you have an intermittent connection in the circuit that cause the payout counter step-up to happen more than once - sometimes you'd see arcing - then you'd expect the short pay amount to be variable, not always 1.

[Lee Pfeifer]

Wolf ,
Thank you for the response, here’s where I’m at with the payouts

https://youtu.be/KsIG9LOua9g

[wolftalk]

inconsistent payout would imply a poor connection.  Overpay is a missed step-up of the payout counter, underpay when the payout counter steps off the end of the trace is a dual step due to arcing (or possibly the mechanicals of the first step since the position of the gear teeth is determined by the zero stop, not the step-up and reset arm pawls).  Underpay when payout stops too soon is usually cruddy wiper/trace contact on payout counter.


you can shotgun check/clean all the switches in the circuit, or you can use a jumper to bypass things.  Which do you prefer?


if a jumper, you'll want one end on wire 30 ... know how to find a place that wire lives?



also, if you'd like to youtube a video of your hopper outside the cabinet or verify the following, that'd help:
1] the override solenoid and knife switch are there and working
2] the pinwheel is correct for the coin denomination
3] the roller arm is low enough that when a coin goes under, the switch blades travel a decent amount, you get good switch action and the switches are clean and gapped reasonably.


by "good switch action" I mean the moving blade keeps moving and shoves the other blade around 1/16" after the contacts touch.  That causes the contacts to swipe across each other ... good mechanical contact and kinda self-cleaning.  If the moving blade contact barely touches the other contact and there's no real overtravel, the switch won't be reliable.

[Lee Pfeifer]

Wolf ,
You are a genius , you really make me think , and I appreciate you taking the time to help me .
I’ll make a video of the hopper out of the machine real quick .

[Lee Pfeifer]

Here’s the video of the hopper out of the machine
https://youtu.be/ifPD8FNyVgQ

[DavidLee]

Try adjusting the spiral cam stop, as to let the cam move back slightly.
Thus allowing the contacts to ride back. This may solve the the under pay problem.

Make note of the adjustment position prior to adjusting. 

[wolftalk]

it's a little hard to see the switch adjust, but you get the idea. 


the roller needs to pulse the switches closed with decent overtravel ... that looks ok.  The pinwheel looks ok too.  The knife should be knocking the coin closest to the roller off the pinwheel when the override solenoid loses power.  That's how they prevent the roller from being partially lifted at the end of payout or lifted too quickly at start of payout.


you don't want the switches closed a long time since coins shoot out pretty quickly.  You need the switches open long enough for the payout counter step up coil plunger to completely pull out of the coil.  If necessary, raise the roller arm so there's less switch movement or adjust the switches for less close time while still having the overtravel


when you have switch stacks with those fat metal blades in them, you want to bend the fat blades where the enter the stack to adjust the contact gaps.  They limit the travel of the blade below, which should snug up against the fat blade when the contacts aren't touching. 


it's not that finicky or it would be a maintenance nightmare.   I'd:


- make sure the blades below the fat ones are straight and snugged up against the fat ones when the switches are open
- the moving blades aren't curved and touching the fat ones
- you get your switch contact overtravel when the roller is on the top of the coin passing beneath it
- if you want bigger switch gaps, adjust the fat blade ... that will move the blade below it down at the same time


if you have a total out meter, does the amount it increments agree with the number of coins ejected?  You usually need the front door closed or the door switch held closed for the total out meter to work.


when you're happy that the switches are solid, if you're still getting flaky payout then you're probably going to need to use the jumper wire.


oh, one other thing you can try ... see if you have payout issues when the pinwheel is fully loaded with coins, but if every other coin is missing, it works ok.    Obviously you can only do that for small payouts or empty the hopper and stick in one coin at a time during payout ... hopefully you won't time out too quickly.

[Lee Pfeifer]

Wolf,
Please tell me about the jumper .

[wolftalk]

you want to jumper yellow wire 30 to red/white wire 15-2 and stick the hopper back in. 


a convenient wire 30 will be on the hopper overflow switch (thing the arm/golf ball operate in the hopper bucket), and 15-2 is connected to all three of the roller switches.



with the jumper on, if you manually lift/release the roller (close the switches the roller operates), the payout counter should step.  Hold it up and the payout counter coil should stay powered and probably be buzzy.  Don't hold it up more than a few seconds, but you want to see if you keep the roller switches closed whether the step-up coil powers/unpowers erratically.  That would mean a bad connection between the switches and the coil, most likely one of the jackpot lockup relay switches since they don't change state much, so don't have switch action to scrub the contacts. 


you can also hold up the roller and jiggle the hopper to see if it's a plug connection issue.


you can leave the jumper on and play the game / make it payout however you like.  If the payout is solid, then the issue is "upstream" of the roller switches (payout relay switch, plug connections, and less likely reel mech switches). 

if your problem does seem to be downstream of the roller switches, you can jumper around the jackpot relay switches.  Move jumper or add another one from the orange/white wire 75 on the roller switches to the red/black wire 18-2 on the odds disc.  That'll remove the jackpot lockup switches from the circuit.

[Lee Pfeifer]

WolfTalk,
Thank you for taking the time to help me , I may have to use the jumper , but for now I’m getting accurate pays on single coin plays about 50% of the time .
I’ll report back , I’m running lots of coins through the machine right now & looking for problems .
Again ..... thank you

[wolftalk]

if nothing else, manually operate the two jackpot lockup relays a few times with power off.  Assuming switch action is decent, that'll scrub the contacts.


below is probably your odds unit diagram.  Compare the wire colors/placement of your unit to the diagram.  I have other 809 odds unit diagrams, but easiest thing is post a picture of your unit showing wipers and lug wiring.

[Lee Pfeifer]

WolfTalk,
What is the jackpot lockup relay ?

[wolftalk]

the jackpot lockup relays are the two relays labelled 55 on the diagram below.


if anyone reading this manages the site, it would be nice to make the maximum image size for upload a lot bigger.  Then people could post pictures of the insides of the machines at a resolution high enough to read labels.  Storage and bandwidth should be non-issues for hosting costs.