809-ZZB in freeplay no pay

[Phan000]

The handle release relay appears to be working.   I know the coil is good, and I see the black post attached to the metal arm click forward when a coin is inserted.








I looked over the jumper description in the sticky, but am still confused on how to attach? diagnose a bad or gunked switch.


For instance these reel mech switches:





Is this the correct positioning for the jumper? 

Do I manually manipulate the switches?   


What about switches with multiple wires like this?









I apologize in advance for my ignorance...


Thanks for all the help!

[DavidLee]

Let’s refresh the situation.
Please describe what happens when the first coin is inserted. Does the handle release?


Then the second coin, if anything happens.


Can you play the machine for a few minutes if you just play one coin at a time?

[wolftalk]

david's got a good idea to back up a little - you're doing fine, but david and I have been kinda talking about different issues.  I want to make sure your handle release relay is tripping to release the handle, and david has been talking about what happens after the handle release relay trips.


If your handle release has been working when the first coin is deposited, you can ignore most of my posts and the below.



fwiw to hopefully help ya understand what the jumper is doing:


- your first picture in post 20 is the coin relay and it's tripped.  If you saw the black roller move forward when playing the first coin, that's good.
 
- your second pic is the reel mech B switch and you've got one end of your jumper on yellow wire 30.  You kinda want the alligator teeth on the lug a little more so there's little chance of the thing shorting to another lug if their clear plastic sleeves are pulled back or missing, but you've got the right idea.


- your third pic is a nice closeup of the coin switch.  The blue wire with the white tracer is wire 25-1.  Pull back the clear sleeve and attach the other end of the jumper there.  Stick the mech back in the game with the coin relay in the tripped position and see if the handle release relay trips.  The other half of the switch with wire 25-1 has black/yellow wire 83-1 on it.  You can jumper 30 to that and see what happens.


if jumpering to 83-1 trips the handle release, but jumpering to 25-1 doesn't, then the switch is not closing well when the coin relay trips.




 

[DavidLee]

Wolftalk, its time for a reset/update.


 Need to clear the mind and start fresh on exactly the present situation.


Knowing if the machine will play one coin at a time will give some direction.

[Phan000]

One coin moves the coin relay post, and the odds unit clicks up top.  Nothing else.




Still chasing the main problem- the handle release switch does not engage though the coil is definitely good.






Sorry I misspoke in my last post, the coin relay appears to move when coin deposited as demonstrated in the photograph,  not the handle release.

[wolftalk]

I updated post 22 for the right wires to jumper to on a 809-ZZB....sorry about that. 


first thing tho is look at the blue/white wire 25-1 and black/yellow wire 83-1 next to the coil on the coin relay.  Could just be the camera angle, but the blue/white wire looks like it's just shoved into the clear insulator sleeve with the black/yellow wire.


did 25-1 break off the switch blade and someone just stuck it against the 83-1 wire, but now it's pulled out enough to not make contact?  Grab wire 25-1 and pull.


in any case, 83-1 and 25-1 should be the wires on the two switch blades nearest the coil, and when the coin relay trips, those blades should connect 83-1 and 25-1 together and the handle release relay should trip.

[DavidLee]

1st coin the coin relay latch trips, but the handle release doesn’t.
Check for continuity on the top contacts. White/blue wire.
To make it somewhat easier connect one side of the meter to the coil white/blue solder joint.
Then probe the associated contacts at the solder joint or on the blade in the stack.
This method will give a more accurate reading than applying pressure near the accrual contact.

If no continuity is found then track the wire back through the beau-plug,
there could be a bad connection at the plug.

Easy option, applying pressure on the top of said contacts with a wood dowel rod, then depressing the coin in switch wire might cause the handle to release.
Try this first, it may save a lot of time.

[Phan000]

Not sure if this is what you meant,


But after deposit of coin,  I pushed on the top contact with the arrow-


Handle release engaged and game played normally.



https://imgur.com/gallery/W5u9kU7




So clean contacts,  check connection of beau plug for this wire?

[DavidLee]

Okay, making forward progress for now.

Nice clean well lit photos helped a lot.

Yes, you preformed the procedure as prescribed.


So, does the machine work as intended?
Taking coins and releasing the handle etc?

[wolftalk]

So clean contacts,  check connection of beau plug for this wire?

clean the contacts and adjust the switch your arrow is pointing at. 


are you familiar with how the switch needs to be adjusted?  You're going to need to change the position of both the bottom and top contact blades (and the thick blades beneath them) to make the switch work right.


youtube videos like this may help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK5eg4R7qLY

in the pic below with arrows added, you need to bend the thick blade down where the purple arrow is to make a gap between the contact blade and the thick blade.  Currently those two blades are touching at the right end, so the  contact blade cannot move down when the handle relay trips. 

I modified the picture to show what it should look like.  Your original pic is also below ... it's the one without the green and purple arrows.

when the handle relay is tripped, the space at the green arrow should disappear - the top blade with the contact should be resting against the thick blade beneath it.  Bend and straighten the top blade where it enters the stack to make that happen.

in other words, when the relay is tripped, the top switch needs to be OPEN.  Right now it looks like it will stay closed, and that will keep the coil powered and fighting the spring trying to pull the armature plate up.  It may hum, buzz or rattle, the switch may arc, and the coil may get too hot.

[DavidLee]

Contact adjustments.


Contact blades and limiter bars should be perfectly horizontal when at rest.
The armature will dictate when and which contacts will be closed and or open.
Depending on the position of the armature.
Best to clean and adjust suspected contacts first, rather than cleaning and adjusting the whole stack.
This method will keep the problem contained to said contacts in question.


The top contacts in this case, controls the release coil as one side of the coil is wired directly to the coil.

[Phan000]

I made a small adjustment to the blade mentioned by wolf.


Coin insert now releases the handle & game plays....


However, it is not paying.  Perhaps I adjusted it too much?


Was very pleased to have the handle finally work.  Getting close I think

[DavidLee]

Not likely that the handle release is preventing payouts.
There’s a switch stack on the back of the hopper top left.
Its the payout relay switch, this and or the payout step up unit needs some attention.
Post photos of both, maybe something obvious.


Glad to hear the handle is working.

[Phan000]

It is strange that the payout stopped as soon as the handle was adjusted.  It was paying (overpaying) fine when I manually release the handle before.


Here are some photos of the hopper stack. 




















I can get some photos of the stepper unit later.   It is advancing and resetting properly now that the handle release is working.




I did bend two of the beau plugs when replacing the reel mech, but bent them back and they seem ok.

[wolftalk]

the middle switch on the handle release relay - with grey wire 90 and brown/yellow wire 63-3 - is in the payout circuit.


you can do david's wiggle-it-with-a-stick test or use a meter/jumper wire to test it.  Do you have an ohmeter?


how did you clean the switch contacts?

[Phan000]

I used a q tip with alcohol to clean contacts.   Initially, moving the wide blade had no effect.   Slightly bending top fin down slightly was what made handle release start to function.


I do have an ohmeter, and a wooden stick.


How would I use either to figure out the issue with the brown/ yellow wire.   since that was the piece that I originally bent, seems to make sense that it is somehow over-adjusted or out of place.

[wolftalk]

stick the ohmeter probes on wire 90 and 63-3.  You should see almost zero ohms when the switch is closed.  If you do, wiggle the switch a little without intentionally opening the contacts and make sure you keep seeing zero ohms.


if wiggling the switch makes the reading bounce around, the switch needs adjusting.


good switch adjustment requires "overtravel" of the blades after the contacts touch.  In this case:


- when the handle relay is tripped, the top blade with 83-3 should be laying flat on the thick limiting blade beneath it and the roller should be holding the lower blade with wire 90 down to create a gap between the contacts
- when the handle relay is reset, the lower blade should push the upper one off the thick blade like your picture shows.


so when the contacts touched to close the switch, BOTH blades kept moving up a little.  That overtravel causes the contact surfaces to slide across each other, making a good mechanical self-cleaning connection.  A rule of thumb is try to have at least 1/3 of the switch blade movement happen after the contacts touch.  Not always possible, especially when nothing is pushing the blade like in this case.  It's only the tension of the lower blade that will lift the upper blade - if both blades are are the same material and thickness, the upper would barely move after the contacts touch .. but you should see a little flex in it.


the usual problem is the contacts are barely touching and the switch is unreliable, which is what you found on the handle release.  Bending the top switch down created overtravel and pressure on the contact faces.


the main problem with using an ohmeter (or continuity) is making sure the only path between the two probes is the circuit you want to check. 


in this case, if you used the ohmeter on the two wires when all the units are in the game, there may be a circuit path thru the transformer and reels that is closed.  Depends on what symbols are on the reels.   If using an ohmeter, you'd see at least a few ohms so you'd know the switch had an issue (since it should be zero).  If using a test light/buzzer, it can't tell the difference between a few ohms and zero ohms, so you'd get a false result.


a sanity check is to open the switch and make sure you see infinite ohms or no continuity, then close the switch and see what you get.

if you understand the schematic well enough, you can see what you need to do to isolate a circuit - put paper between switch contacts, remove units from the machine, etc. to make sure you don't have multiple paths between the probes.   That lets you do stuff like sticking a probe on a coin switch terminal and the other probe on a payout relay terminal and see if you have a closed circuit when the reels are on a winner. 

it's often easier and more reliable to measure voltage or use a jumper wire tho, and when measuring voltage you ideally want the circuit to be closed so current is flowing.  It is possible for a connection to measure almost zero ohms but still not work.  The meter sends a tiny current thru the connection, but in game operation a much larger current needs to flow and the connection can't handle it and the circuit doesn't work. 

[DavidLee]

Right Wolftalk,


Most likely the 90 solid gray wire contacts are out of adjustment.
This circuit makes its way to the wiper boards.
No contact the machine will not pay.
If there’s a stationary limit bar, it might be holding the contact up and apart.
Manually lift up the top contact blade the bottom should follow for a short distance.
If the bottom blade stays stationary, adjust the blades accordingly.

[Phan000]

I’ve not had any success manipulating the great wire blade.   Tried a couple different movements.   Nothing, even with clear winners on the reel.


I did notice that the winner paid light stays on?


Here is the current layout of the fins.


https://i.imgur.com/aEbxg0o.jpg

[Phan000]

I’ve not had any success manipulating the gray wire blade.   Tried a couple different movements.   Nothing, even with clear winners on the reel.


I did notice that the winner paid light stays on?


Here is the current layout of the fins.


https://i.imgur.com/aEbxg0o.jpg