Bally Continental, No Pay Out

[awsome-dudes]

Hey guys, just picked up a Continental that im looking to fix, ive worked on pinball machines and jukeboxes in the past but never a slot. As of now, you can insert coins and pull handle as excpected, reels turn and lock in, followed by what sounds like a solenoid firing afterwards a few times and then nothing. There are a few tweeked fingers on the reel contact plates but i tested for contact with a multi-meter and they seem to be just fine. Any help in the direction i should be looking would be great!

[wolftalk]

what's the full model number on the plate below the handle?


some of the continentals had coin pay, some had replay registers for credit play, and some had both and were configurable with a key switch.



paperwork for some games is on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ - manuals are there too.


the schematic is same as bally pingames, so you'll have no trouble there.


win detection is creating a path thru the reel wiper boards to power the payout relay.   Using the plug charts on the schematic, you can verify a closed path thru the reel mech when the reels are set to a winning combo, then debug from there.


post the model number and people can suggest what to do next.

[awsome-dudes]

Model plate says 847 and 6MT-5259, I got it to pay out briefly the other nigth, someone had really messed up the payout counter unit, cleaned it up then realized they had the recoil spring wrong as well so it wasnt actually stepping up, put it back in and now no payout again, leads me to belive there is something wrong with the payout unit still.

[wolftalk]

base model 847 is coin pay only and uses a mechanically stepped payout counter.   There should be a linkage with a spring around it that gets pushed down to step the payout counter when a coin exits the hopper.


first check is to verify that's what you have in case your serial/model plate doesn't really match what's inside.


if you are good there, then as long as the payout counter is reset, when you have a winner the payout relay under the hopper should power and turn on the hopper motor.  As the coins shoot out, the payout counter steps up until the wipers step off the end of the active trace (depends on the winner).


if you played multiple coins, circuits involving the odds unit and odds follower unit reset the payout counter and it pays again.   The reset and pay again happens N-1 times, where N=number of coins played.


first step is to get the payout relay to power.  The schem for the 847 is in here:
   http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/847/

it's the w-1046-770.png file.

the circuit for a single cherry pay working backwards from the payout relay would be along wire 93, thru the 2 trace, the reel 1 wiper to wire 90, then follow 90 back to the coin switch.  If the payout relay is not powering:
- one of the switches is open
- wiper->rivet contact bad
- plug connection

that enough info to get started?

[awsome-dudes]

Yes thanks! Ill do some digging!

[awsome-dudes]

Alright, so a bunch of cold solder joints on the payout unit seem to have been the main problem, now its onto troubleshooting individual win paths. Also is there a secret to getting the payout counter mech to spin easier, ive got the tentlsion as high as i can safely go without cause issues when it maxes out, but at small payout of 2 coins it doesn't have enough tension to reset it self.

[wolftalk]

- the white ratchet and hole thru the frame need to be clean and no lube.
- the printed circuit traces clean
- the wiper fingers can't be pressing down with too much pressure on the traces and contacts need to be clean
- if the zero switch is stalling you, less tension on the switch blades
- the coiled torsion spring cleaned if someone put some kinda lube/wd-40 on it.
- no dried lubricant on the outboard wiper assembly.
- the spiral clean 

take the unit apart and clean off any old lube.  0000 synthetic steel wool or a green scrub pad with denatured alcohol will clean the traces, an alcohol bath for the torsion spring, and no lube on reassembly should get you there.

if the wipers are dragging on the traces and you can't reduce the pressure, you can put a really thin film of a lube on the traces.   CRC contact cleaner/lube has a mineral oil base that works ok.

I use tri-flow superior lubricant for metal-on-metal parts.  They have a squeeze bottle with tube so you can drip it where needed.  I've never tried their dry lube.


for lube, practically anything works, it's just a question of how long before it gums or cruds up.  Anything pinball guys use do the same thing here.  3-in-1 oil (blue can), CV joint grease, gottlieb contact plate lube, etc.  I'd avoid super-lube or any similarly viscous product on stepper unit contact plates that have a lot of steps, but maybe a really thin smear would be ok.

[awsome-dudes]

Thanks for the tips! Got the stepper cleaned and working, now onto troubleshooting payout values. First thing I notice is that the hopper shoots coins out sideways sometimes, 9 out of 60 or so get right under the roller arm, counted, and then the bottom slips out of the angle guide and launches it in to the hopper. Ive tried varying the height of the arm. Is there anything else I can do to prevent this?

[wolftalk]

the top of the coin knife should be shaped to form a bit of a channel to prevent the bottom of the coin from moving away from the pinwheel.   The knife is specific to the coin denomination and country.

the roller is beveled to keep the top of the coin pulled against the pinwheel.


assuming the coin knife didn't get mangled at some point, is correct for the coin denomination, and is positioned as close to the pinwheel disc as possible without touching, another way you can get coins popping off the channel is if the roller is set too low.


if you stick a coin under the roller so the roller is lifted its max distance, there should be around 3/64" gap between the pivot arm (what the roller is attached to) and the top of the slot the pivot arm pokes thru above the spring on the link going down to the payout counter.


in other words, if the roller is too low, it'll take too much force for a coin to pass under it and the coin will tend to pop out.  If the roller is too high, the payout counter won't step reliably and the game will overpay because not all the coins will be counted.

[awsome-dudes]

After all sorts of tweaking, I got it to work reliably by pulling the knife a hair forward away from the hopper mech thereby creating more of a v for the lower end of the coin. Its been very much 2 steps forward one step back with this machine though, I don't hear the odds motor running anymore, is that ran through the hopper mech at all or do I need to look at schematics for the top half of the game?

[wolftalk]

the odds motor starts when the odds follower relay powers, and stays running until odds motor #1 switch opens.  I don't remember if that's 360 degrees of cam rotation or less.



the odds follower relay only powers when you play 2+ coins and the payout counter is reset to pay again.  If you hear the odds motor at other times, you fixed that :-) 


if the game pays multiple coins correctly, the odds motor is working.   if it doesn't pay multiple coins, the circuit goes thru a payout relay switch and the payout counter reset arm switch and the hopper plug, so check all those, then open up the top if you have to.

[awsome-dudes]

It's defiantly is paying out correctly for multiple coins. Ill assume that's working as intended now then haha. Is this machine suppose to divert coins beyond 6 back out of the machine?

[wolftalk]

It's defiantly is paying out correctly for multiple coins. Ill assume that's working as intended now then haha. Is this machine suppose to divert coins beyond 6 back out of the machine?

yup.


there's an "open at 5th odds unit" switch on the ratchet/gear side of the odds unit that is operated by a peg sticking out of the ratchet.  The switch with blue/white and white/brown wires on it should open at the 5th step of the unit ... when 6th coin played ... and turn off the coin lockout coil behind the coil mech.


when the coin lockout coil is turned off, the armature plate in front of it pokes a tab into the coin mech and causes all coins to be rejected.


when the armature and/or coil top got worn, the thing tended to buzz - loudly.  The quick fix was to disable the function by disconnecting the coil and/or removing/disabling the armature.  If the game kept extra coins that should have been returned, most operators felt they could live with that :-)

[awsome-dudes]

I've got an new issue that popped up, while playing the lights got bright and the fuse blew, after replacing the fuse the lights are back but now the slot is not not registering coins being added, I can hear the one coil fire for each coin but the odds don't step up and the lever does not unlock. Any suggestions?

[wolftalk]

usually that means the 50V circuit got shorted into the 6V circuit.  Did the 6V or 50V fuse blow, and which lamps popped?


take a look at the wiring harness and connectors to the coin door, and look for places on the coin door where solid yellow wire 30 is busted off.  It daisy chains around to  all the GI (general illumination) lamps.


if it happens again, replace the fuse but don't spin the reels ... or note what symbols are on the reels so you can set that combo up again.   There should be a button inside the coin door you can push that powers the anti-cheat relay.  Push it and if the lamps/fuse blow again suspect you have an alignment issue with the reel wipers onto the contact plates.


the main things closing the coin switch should do is cause the coin relay on the left side of the reel mech to trip.  Switches on that relay will cause the handle release relay to trip. 


your game has an odds reset relay that also powers when the coin switch is down and the handle release isn't tripped.  Open the coin door and hold down the coin switch.  If you hear the relay click and not release until you let go of the coin switch, look and see if the coin relay tripped.  If not, reseat the reel mech.  If that doesn't help, then one of these is the problem:


1] handle release relay switch connecting wires 23-2 and 21-1 is open when handle is locked
2] coin relay switch connecting 21-1 and 83 is open when coin relay is reset
3] plug connections are bad


there's a chart on the schem mapping wire id's to colors.  e.g. 23 is blue/yellow, 83 is black/yellow, 21 is blue/red.  The -x part is the instance since they had to reuse the same color wires in different circuits.

[awsome-dudes]

6V Fuse Blew, all lights when out minus the fluorescents, however when inserting coins very briefly the corresponding odds column would flash, this was prior to the lever no longer releasing. The odd Reset solenoid does fire every time I hit the coin switch, the previous owner disconnected the reset switch in the top right, im not sure why.

[wolftalk]

just to make sure ... solenoids have the coil with plunger, relays have the coil and armature plate.  There's an odds reset relay and a odds unit reset solenoid.


the odds reset relay should power every time the coin switch is depressed if the handle isn't released.  The odds unit reset solenoid should only power if the odds unit is stepped up at least once.


the sequence on the 847 from game power on - assuming the coin relay and handle release relay are reset:


1] hold down coin switch
- coin relay should trip, odds reset relay should power, odds unit reset solenoid powers and odds unit resets, count unit resets if it was stepped up
- anti-cheat relay should power and stay powered
- odds relay powers and stays powered.  Odds relay is different from odds reset relay.


2] release coin switch
- odds reset relay loses power
- odds unit steps up
- odds relay loses power
- handle release relay trips and handle is pullable


3] if coin switch depressed/released more times
- odds relay powers when depressed and stays powered
- odds unit steps up when coin switch released and odds relay loses power


if the coin relay doesn't trip, the handle release relay won't trip.  Multiple coins still step up the odds tho.


yank the hopper and look for issues with the plugs, plug wiring and coin relay switches.

[awsome-dudes]

sorry, that was my bad on terminology, I moved the relay on the left of the reel mech to unlock the handle, which it did as expected and now resets its self as expected, not sure why it wouldn't do it on its own that first time. Its now working as it should again, I just need to pinpoint what caused the fuse to blow, and get new bulbs, it didn't blow the fuse a second time though.

[wolftalk]

if you yanked out the reel mech when fiddling with the coin relay, definitely check the plugs.  Look for cruddy pins, pins pushed back into the housing, or wiring issues.


someone recently had a similar lamp issue.  If he held down the coin switch, the lamps that flashed stayed on.  He found a segment of yellow wire 30 broken off a lamp socket which allowed the 50V and 6V to get applied across the lamps because the shared common/neutral wire 30 was no longer connected to the transformer.

[sbmania]

just to make sure ... solenoids have the coil with plunger, relays have the coil and armature plate.  There's an odds reset relay and a odds unit reset solenoid.


the odds reset relay should power every time the coin switch is depressed if the handle isn't released.  The odds unit reset solenoid should only power if the odds unit is stepped up at least once.


the sequence on the 847 from game power on - assuming the coin relay and handle release relay are reset:

1] hold down coin switch
- coin relay should trip, odds reset relay should power, odds unit reset solenoid powers and odds unit resets, count unit resets if it was stepped up
- anti-cheat relay should power and stay powered
- odds relay powers and stays powered.  Odds relay is different from odds reset relay.


2] release coin switch
- odds reset relay loses power
- odds unit steps up
- odds relay loses power
- handle release relay trips and handle is pullable


3] if coin switch depressed/released more times
- odds relay powers when depressed and stays powered
- odds unit steps up when coin switch released and odds relay loses power


if the coin relay doesn't trip, the handle release relay won't trip.  Multiple coins still step up the odds tho.


yank the hopper and look for issues with the plugs, plug wiring and coin relay switches.

On a related note, I'm having a problem with a Super Continental.  It won't pay for multiple coins - only for one coin.  I found that the odds follower relay, if manually actuated, will allow the machine to pay correctly.  But I can't find out what causes the odds follower relay to pull in.  Anyone know off the top of their head.  Or have a Super Continental schematic handy?  Or know where I can buy one?  Any help greatly appreciated!