Bally 1114 3-coin coin reject issue.

[wolftalk]

Ok I'm back to this.
Well I'm an idiot! I had unsoldered the black/white wire instead of the white/black. And if I had just used the wire numbers as instructed, I would not have goofed up.
SO now... the wires are correct, I hope. And yes I left the other wire on the switch contact.
However, now it's back to just taking unlimited coins to the hopper but only registering one coin.
 

that's probably a different issue. 

after a spin, the first coin deposited should cause the coin relay to trip, and that in turn causes the handle release relay to trip.

after the handle release relay is tripped, the next coins cause the coin unit step-up relay to power, and that in turn causes the coin unit step-up solenoid to fire to step up the coin unit.  There's a bit of sequencing involved, so:

1] after a spin, push down/release the coin switch and verify the coin relay and handle release relay tripped.

2] if that's good, push and hold down the coin switch.  The coin unit step-up relay (not the step-up solenoid on the coin unit itself) should power.

3] when you release the coin switch, the coin unit step-up relay should stay powered and when the coin switch is up, the coin unit step-up solenoid should power.

4] when the solenoid plunger pulls in, the coin unit step-up arm switch with the 30 and 75-7 wires should open and the coin unit step-up relay unpowers.  That in turn unpowers the step-up solenoid and the coin unit wipers should rotate one position.

none of the above cares about what the lockout coil is doing, so  none of the changes you made should effect it.  Even the 85 vs 58-3 wire oops would only effect coin unit reset.

[shortrackskater]

that's probably a different issue. 

after a spin, the first coin deposited should cause the coin relay to trip, and that in turn causes the handle release relay to trip.

after the handle release relay is tripped, the next coins cause the coin unit step-up relay to power, and that in turn causes the coin unit step-up solenoid to fire to step up the coin unit.  There's a bit of sequencing involved, so:

1] after a spin, push down/release the coin switch and verify the coin relay and handle release relay tripped.

2] if that's good, push and hold down the coin switch.  The coin unit step-up relay (not the step-up solenoid on the coin unit itself) should power.

3] when you release the coin switch, the coin unit step-up relay should stay powered and when the coin switch is up, the coin unit step-up solenoid should power.

4] when the solenoid plunger pulls in, the coin unit step-up arm switch with the 30 and 75-7 wires should open and the coin unit step-up relay unpowers.  That in turn unpowers the step-up solenoid and the coin unit wipers should rotate one position.

none of the above cares about what the lockout coil is doing, so  none of the changes you made should effect it.  Even the 85 vs 58-3 wire oops would only effect coin unit reset.

I'm officially lost.
The coin relay powers when a coin inserted, or when I flip the switch. The handle unlocks. Any further flip of switch does absolutely nothing.
Did I mis-wire something? What bothers me is that before I did all this, the machine DID take three coins and step up properly. It just kept taking money to the hopper after the third coin.
I APPRECIATE all this help, but at this point, I'm ready to just undue everything I did and return it back to before - if I actually can. I know you had me bend some of the contacts to change the open/close setting.
My brain seems to be wired more for digital circuits and old mechanical machines. 

[wolftalk]

is the coin lockout coil behind the coin mech staying powered after the first coin is inserted (the game accepts the coin, but the coin unit doesn't step up)?   

it's actually kinda irrelevant because the nothing you were changing should affect the coin unit step-up, so undoing any of that stuff shouldn't solve the problem.

what's supposed to happen on the first coin after a spin is the coin relay trips and that in turn causes the handle release relay to trip.   Sounds like that's working.

the coin unit should reset if it's not already) and the 1st coin lights should be on.

the next coin should cause the coin unit step-up relay to power, and a switch on that relay causes the coin unit step-up solenoid to fire which steps up the coin unit when the solenoid unpowers.

the only thing in the circuit between the coin switch 23-1 wire and the coin unit step-up relay is a handle release relay switch (23-1 to 61-1 after the handle release has tripped) and plug connections.

I dunno where the coin unit step-up relay is on a lowboy game or if it's the old style open relay or a "ice cube" style relay.  The relay coil will have wire 70 and 61-1 on it tho.  David Walz should know since he has a 1114 disassembled at the moment. 

[update] ... looks like from a picture david sent me the coin unit step-up relay is next to the reel 3 wiper board and it's a old-style relay.  If you clip a jumper onto the 61-1 coil wire and touch the other end to wire 30 on the coin switch, the relay should power and cause the coin unit to step up.


another test ... assuming you don't hear the coin unit step-up relay powering when you push down the coin switch after the first coin ... is attach voltmeter probes to 61-1 on the handle release relay and 70 on any handy 50V coil (like the coin diverter), then hold down the coin switch and see if you get 50VAC after the handle release is tripped. 

if you do get 50V on 61-1 on the handle release relay switch, move the probe to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay coil and see what you get.

[shortrackskater]

Coin lockout is staying powered. No step up after any coin inserted (or switch flipped) afterward.
First coin light stays on.
I can manually rotate the coin wiper board slowly and it steps up to third coin then lockout activates (powers off)
I'm adding two photos to make sure I'm jumping the correct points. I'm 99.9% sure this is correct.

[wolftalk]

yup, those are the right points.

you don't want to clip both ends of the jumper on, you just want to briefly connect those two points together.  When you connect, the solenoid powers and pulls in the plunger.  When you disconnect, the solenoid unpowers and that's when the wipers turn.

you should be able to manually step up and reset the coin unit by operating the solenoid plungers.  If you have the ratchet in wrong or the pin switches not positioned properly wrt to the peg sticking out of the rachet, the solenoids might fire but the ratchet can't move due to mechanical interference and the plungers may not pull back out of the coils.

your second pic in post #31 is the reset position of the unit with a peg pushing some of the switch blades.

usually you can at least hear the coin unit step-up relay powering when you depress the coin switch the second time.  If you hear nothing, your problem is likely the handle release relay switch or plug connection, and less likely the coin unit step up relay coil itself.

the wiring changes you made are controlling the lockout coil correctly(ish), so you're good there.

[shortrackskater]

Ok I briefly jumped the two points. And yes it does step up!

What is my next step? The more I work on this, the more I realize the insanity of EM machines and troubleshooting.

This?
"another test ... assuming you don't hear the coin unit step-up relay powering when you push down the coin switch after the first coin ... is attach voltmeter probes to 61-1 on the handle release relay and 70 on any handy 50V coil (like the coin diverter), then hold down the coin switch and see if you get 50VAC after the handle release is tripped. 
if you do get 50V on 61-1 on the handle release relay switch, move the probe to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay coil and see what you get."

And again, I'm sorry I have to be have my hand held in doing this. I am learning but also easily confused with this dang thing.
I'll try and make up for it in my behind the scenes work here!   

[wolftalk]

you can do that test or use a jumper wire some more ... both work.

below is the circuits you care about:

1] the red highlight is the circuit that isn't working

2] you proved the coin unit step-up coil works by jumping the not-wire-70 lug on the coil to wire 30 - the green line

3] the only thing left in the circuit is the coin unit step-up relay switch, the coin switch and plug connections.  Since the handle release relay works, the coin switch itself is ok (handle release is fed from wire 74-1), so one or more of:

a] the coin unit step-up relay switch isn't working
b] plug connections are bad
c] the coin unit step-up relay is not powering when the coin switch is depressed - yellow circuit

since ya have a jumper, you can connect one end to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay (next to reel 3 wiper board) and with the reels back in, touch the other end to wire 30 on the coin switch.  The coin unit step-up relay should power, which in turn should power the coin unit step up coil.

if that works, the red circuit is ok and your problem is the yellow circuit.  If it doesn't work, problem depends on whether the coin unit step-up relay powered.

if using a voltmeter, you can stick one probe on wire 70 and poke around anywhere in the 50V circuits you care about and see if the meter says 50VAC.  If it does, you have a closed circuit path from your probe to wire 30.  If you get a much lower voltage, you have an open circuit or a cruddy connection if the circuit is supposed to be closed.

e.g. if you put probes on wire 70 and 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay, you should not get 50V because the coin switch is not connecting 30 to 23-1 when the tripwire is up.  If you push down the tripwire, then you should see 50V IF the handle release relay is tripped so it connects 23-1 to 61-1.

make sense?

[shortrackskater]

"since ya have a jumper, you can connect one end to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay (next to reel 3 wiper board) and with the reels back in, touch the other end to wire 30 on the coin switch.  The coin unit step-up relay should power, which in turn should power the coin unit step up coil."

This was what I did just and yes, it steps up properly, then locks out. I'm not sure what you meant about "with the reels back" as they were in when I did the test.

"e.g. if you put probes on wire 70 and 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay, you should not get 50V because the coin switch is not connecting 30 to 23-1 when the tripwire is up.  If you push down the tripwire, then you should see 50V IF the handle release relay is tripped so it connects 23-1 to 61-1."

Placed my meter on those exact points. I get 0 voltage. When I depress the coin switch I get about 37 volts.

[wolftalk]

I think you can delete post 68+

your status as of post 67 is the coin unit and it's step-up solenoid coil works properly, but the game is not powering that solenoid when it should.

that's the job of the coin unit step-up relay on the reel mech, so you need to figure out if the relay is not working, a switch on it is bad, or there's a wiring/plug issue.

just to make sure:
- a solenoid coil has a hole through it and a plunger sucks into the coil hole when the coil is powered. 
- a relay coil has a flat(ish) top and a metal armature plate pulls down onto the coil top when the coil is powered. 



yeah, 68 thru this post aren't really relevant since they assumed a different jumper wire location.

if ya wanted to dredge anything from those posts, it'd be this:

if you jumpered from 61-1 on the reel 1 microswitch to 60-5 on the coin unit step up solenoid coil and things worked, then it's a pretty safe bet the molex connector to the handle release relay and the reel mech beau plug are ok.

the 61-1 wire from the beau plug pin to the coin unit step-up relay could still have a problem at the beau plug, but it's not likely.

[shortrackskater]

Ok we've gone back in time to Aug 20. Hey wait... does that mean I have to have ANOTHER birthday? 

Sorry I sound lost (I am somewhat), but where are we at this juncture? Back troubleshooting in the reel mechanism area?

[wolftalk]

your problem is getting the coin unit step-up relay circuit to work right (lower relay next to reel wiper 3 board).

do this:

1] remove the reel mech
2] jumper orange wire 70 from a coil on the door or the handle release coil to wire 70 on the coin unit step-up relay coil
3] jumper 61-1 on the coin unit step up relay and touch it to yellow wire 30 on the coil switch

does the relay power?

if yes, remove those jumpers and jumper 61-1 on the reel 1 microswitch to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay.  Shove reels back in and coin the game to reset, then manualy push down/release the coin switch.    Do the odds step up?  If not, do you hear the coin unit step-up relay powering when you push down the coin switch?

[shortrackskater]

your problem is getting the coin unit step-up relay circuit to work right (lower relay next to reel wiper 3 board).
do this:

1] remove the reel mech
2] jumper orange wire 70 from a coil on the door or the handle release coil to wire 70 on the coin unit step-up relay coil
3] jumper 61-1 on the coin unit step up relay and touch it to yellow wire 30 on the coil switch

does the relay power?
if yes, remove those jumpers and jumper 61-1 on the reel 1 microswitch to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay.  Shove reels back in and coin the game to reset, then manualy push down/release the coin switch.    Do the odds step up?  If not, do you hear the coin unit step-up relay powering when you push down the coin switch?

Ok finally got to this. 
Jumpered as instructed steps 1 to 3 and YES it does power. 
I shoved the reels back in and powered on. The odds do NOT step up but the coin unit step up relay DOES activate.

[wolftalk]

ok, something is wrong with the circuit below.   There's only one switch, plug connections and wires.

you want a coin unit step-up relay (CUSUR) switch to connect wire 74-1 to 60-5 when the relay is powered.   

60-5 should connect to the coin unit step-up solenoid coil, and 74-1 should connect to wire 30 thru the coin switch.  That should power the solenoid, and it's not happening.

easy but unreliable test is:

1] remove the reels
2] connect ohmeter probes to wire 74-1 and 60-5 on the reel mech plug pins (see way below if not sure how).  You should get very high/infinite ohms.
3] manually close the CUSUR (push the relay armature plate down onto the coil top).  You should get almost zero ohms.

if you don't get almost zero ohms

the switch on the CUSUR needs clean/adjust or there's a wire broken.

problem is you don't know from the schematic where wire 74-1 is going.  It's connecting 3 points - the plug pin, the switch on the CUSUR and a switch on reel mech A-1.   It could be any of these three and it's just manufacturing convenience:

plug pin ---- CUSUR switch ---- A-1
CUSUR switch ---- plug pin ---- A-1
plug pin ---- A-1 ---- CUSUR switch



since the game pays, you know that 74-1 is good between the plug pin and reel mech A-1.  You don't know if the 74-1 wire going to the CUSUR switch is connected to the plug pin or the A-1 switch ... you have to look.

if you do get almost zero ohms

the wiring is probably ok, but a cruddy CUSUR switch can still cause a problem.  So could a poor connection in the wire 60-1 pin/socket connection.

things you can try:

1] jumper 74-1 from reel mech A-1 to 74-1 on the CUSUR switch, stick in reels and test.
2] jumper 60-5 on the CUSUR switch to 60-5 on the coin unit step-up solenoid.  Stick in reels and test.
3] connect jumpers to both 74-1 and 60-5 on the CUSUR switch and leave them hanging out the front of the reels.  Stuff the reels back in and:
  a] touch the jumper ends together briefly.  The coin unit should step up.
  b] touch/remove the 60-5 jumper to wire 30 on the coin switch.  The coin unit should step up.
  c] connect the 74-1 jumper to 74-1 on the coin switch and use the coin switch to "add coins".  The coin unit should step up.

depending on which of the [a-c] things above work or don't work, that will tell you if the problem is the switch or the circuit in which side of the switch is the problem.

plug charts:

the plug chart on the schematic is looking into the female socket ... which is the same as looking at the wiring side of the male plug.   Normally you are looking at the pins, so you have to mentally mirror the chart.

the female beau plug has two horizontal pins and a vertical pin in each row.  Oddly, pin 1 is not a vertical pin.

below is a pic from david walz of the 1114 reel mech sockets.  Pin one on each female socket would be the top/right pin, therefore pin 1 on the mating male plug would be the top left pin.

in the below picture, it looks like pin 22 is missing in the larger socket, but it wouldn't matter because the chart shows pins 20-24 aren't used.

[shortrackskater]

First step here.
I think I've isolated the first two areas to check, but making sure. I found the 74-1 on the small beau plug on the reel mech. However, there's TWO wires that come from under the mechanism and tie to a third that then makes it's way to the other side, the larger plug to pin 24 (IF I am reading it correctly). There is a brown wire on the large plug at pin 10.
Is this my starting point? I'm measure resistance at those two points while depressing the step up relay manually?

[wolftalk]

usually this kinda thing is done due to a damaged/burnt pin.  It's okay to move the wires to an unused pin - obviously on both the plug and socket unless you are intentionally changing the behavior of the game.

looks like your pin 15 on the small plug is both burnt and pushed down into the housing, so they abandoned it.

that's fine as long as they moved the wire in the female socket also.

as you said, your test changes to putting the probes on pins 10 and 24 of the big plug and manually "closing" the coin unit step-up relay to verify almost zero ohms.

tmi
----
if that works, you'll probably want to verify the wires were moved in the sockets.  You can just stick a meter probe on 74-1 on the coin switch and poke pin 24 on the big socket to see if you get almost zero ohms.  If no, poke the original pin 15 on the small socket and see if the wire is still attached there.

why there's a white/green/brown wire on pin 18 of the small plug is another question.  Bally did not use 3 color wires, and that pin was originally unused.  The obvious thing if abandoning pin 15 would be to move the wires to the unused pin 18 ... or  if the housing is undamaged, I prefer to steal an unused pin and replace the bad pin 15 so you don't need to move wires in the female sockets and the thing stays like the schematic says.

if someone had already used pin 18, then the only unused pins are over on the bigger plug/socket so they had to run a wire extension to use one of those.

may be worth seeing where the white/green/brown wire on pin 18 is going and what it's for (hopefully this hasn't been looked at previously and I forgot about it).

74-1 connects five things on the reels - two different switches on the coin unit step-up relay, a switch on the coin unit reset relay, the plug pin and a reel mech A-1 switch.

since there's a double wire 74-1 at the plug, it's a pretty safe bet that one wire goes to the relay switches and the other goes to the reel mech A-1 switch.   

often a wire going to two switches on the same relay is just a bare wire end soldered to two blades.
 
if you don't get almost zero ohms putting the probes on any two of the five connect points of the 74-1 wire (A-1 switch, the three relay switches or [now] pin 24 on the big plug), you've found a problem with wire 74-1 itself.   Since the game pays, the wire going to A-1 works, so it'd be the wire going from the pin to the relays that could have a problem.

you really only care that 74-1 makes it to the switch blade that connects to wire 60-5.  If the other relay blades didn't work, that just effects meters and the chime.

[shortrackskater]

Weeks later update - Sorry I've been sick and only had time for NLG, and not my own stuff!

I got as far as checking:
"you'll probably want to verify the wires were moved in the sockets.  You can just stick a meter probe on 74-1 on the coin switch and poke pin 24 on the big socket to see if you get almost zero ohms.  If no, poke the original pin 15 on the small socket and see if the wire is still attached there."
I have zero ohms there.

I'll now check the tri-color wire at pin 18 on the reel bundle and report back soon!

[shortrackskater]

Ok I've finally traced that white green brown wire and found it went to a connector on the reel bundle that then goes directly to the mechanical counter light. There's a different tri-color wire that goes up to one of the switches on the reel bundle from that connector. Photos added.
I'm getting lost with this and, again I apologize for my long delays.

[wolftalk]

ok, short version.

1] can you see the coin unit step-up relay when the reels are inserted into the cabinet?

2] can you attach a jumper wire to wire 74-1 on a coin unit step-up relay switch and dangle the end out of the cabinet after shoving the reels back in

if yes, take/post a picture of where you attached the jumper in [2]

3] push down/release the coin switch to reset the game

4] hold down the coin switch ... is the coin unit step-up relay powered?  If yes, touch the end of the jumper wire to yellow wire 30 on the coin switch.  Did the coin unit step up?

[shortrackskater]

Ok I jumpered from 74-1 (I hope! It was orange with a green stripe). Powered up the machine, flipped the coin switch and the relay does power up. I then attached the jumper to the orange YELLOW wire on the coin switch and it does NOT step up.
Last sentence was incorrect! See my reply #80 for explanation. 
 
I've been so busy here on NLG that I haven't had time for this but I will try to act quicker! 

[wolftalk]

Ok I jumpered from 74-1 (I hope! It was orange with a green stripe). Powered up the machine, flipped the coin switch and the relay does power up.
I then attached the jumper to the orange wire on the coin switch and it does NOT step up.
UGH!
I've been so busy here on NLG that I haven't had time for this but I will try to act quicker! 

no worries, assuming my wife doesn't kill me for being annoying, I can confuse ya for as long as ya want.

I hope you meant you touched the jumper to the YELLOW wire on the coin switch.  If you touched it to the 74-1 wire on the coin switch when the coin switch was down, nothing should happen.

your jumper end is on 74-1 on the coin unit step-up relay (CUSUR) correctly.  The mating blade when the relay powers is brown wire 60-5.  60-5 is supposed to go directly to the coin unit step-up coil to advance the number of coins played.

things to check:

1] when you push down the coin switch the second+ time, the CUSUR should power and stay powered when you release the coin switch.  Does it?  If no, that's a problem.

2] if you move the jumper from 74-1 on the CUSUR to 60-5 on the mating blade and touch/remove the other end of the jumper to yellow wire 30 on the coin switch, does the coin unit step up coil fire and increase the coins played?  If no, that's a different problem.