6 volt lighting problem

[rdaniel]

Greetings all
My 873 C  has developed a problem with the 6 volt lighting. It seems that right after a payout the fuse in the 6 volt circuit blows out. I can play and the lights stay on, until there is a payout. Right afterwards the lights sort of fade out.
The 50 volt /circuit fuse is not affected, so the machine play and pays, just without the 6 volt lighting.
Any assistance would be appreciated.

rdaniel

[rokgpsman]

Have you verified that the fuse that is blowing is the right amps size? Also, sometimes the correct fuse is a "slow-blow" type but someone has installed a "fast-blow" by mistake. Even if the amp rating is the same a slow-blow type is sometimes needed due to a momentary surge that can happen when something is switched on. A slow-blow fuse will tolerate a surge (up to a point of course) and not blow.

[rdaniel]

I will try the slow blow fuse. I was beginning to narrow the problem down to the hopper, however, i ran out of fuses. The schematic indicates a 10 amp fuse.

In my investigation, I manually stepped up the hopper payout so that the the winner paid switch would close. Upon inserting the hopper the fuse blew. Also might be in the payout relay switches.

Rdaniel

[rokgpsman]

Do you suspect a problem with the hopper or the hopper control board (if there is one)?

With the hopper out of the machine can you rotate the coin wheel manually? You can see if it turns without a lot of effort. Only turn it counter-clockwise, same direction it would turn to pull up coins and pay them out. You will need to release the hopper motor brake by pressing or lifting on it. It's a spring activated lock on the back end of the motor, usually on top.

Sometimes the hopper motor gearbox grease dries out and that makes it harder for the motor to turn things. If the hopper motor is having to work harder than normal it will draw more amps, that's the way any motor works. But I'd think the hopper wouldn't be on the 6 volt circuit. Is the 6 volts used for things beside the lights?

 

[rdaniel]

No. The hopper is 120 volts. The 6 volts is for the lights.

[rokgpsman]

What I meant was is there anything about the hopper that is connected to the 6 volts, like a hopper control board or coin-out counter circuit for example?

[DavidLee]

Machine running fine up until the next pull of the handle and the lights dim then go out.
Dimming is caused by an overload which raises the temperature then the fuse blows.


I would check any wires close to moving mechanisms like the handle release, left side of hopper, door and door jam.
Since it only happens on a win, concentrate on the win light circuit. Inspect wires that ride on the door jamb.
Use a meter to see if the wire is shorting to the case.
I believe there is a switch on the payout step up unit, top left on the back side that’s part of the win paid circuit.

[rdaniel]

The winner paid light is activated through the payout relay. Also i wonder if the winner paid switch is shorting. thanks for the suggestions David, I will check.

rdaniel

[Op-Bell]

It sounds like the Winner Paid light is shorted to ground. Trace the wire back from the lamp - it may be cut through and shorting to the machine frame. But first try taking the bulb out, as they can fail short too sometimes.

[rdaniel]

Thank you Op-Bell. You are correct. i noticed that the two connections were touching, so I separated them and I thought that I had solved my slot problems.

Well apparently not. It seems now that when i insert the hopper back into the machine the the 50 volt fuse blows. It has to be the hopper because the 50 volts to the coin box counter works when the hopper is not inserted.
 
So i changed that fuse tried again and this time the 120 volt fuse blew. I am out of 3 amp fuses, so I have to get more. Any suggestions on this?   

rdaniel

[DavidLee]

Inspect the wiring related to the fluorescent lights, possibly one in shorting to the case after making last adjustment to the light socket. This would cause the 120 fuse to blow. Check the fuse sizes 15, 10 and 8 amp fuse are used, but double check that.

[GOS]

i would check the hopper beauplug - the female for a broken pin shorting.  to test for a short in the hopper - use continuity tester - ground to the frame of the hopper and test each pin on the male beauplug (hopper out of the machine).

[rdaniel]

Still very frustrated. I checked the hopper for shorts to the case and metal parts. None. Lights all work until I insert the hopper then within a second or two the machine goes dead.   Checked the female and male beau plugs, nothing shorting. Also checked the payout relay to see if the hopper motor wires were touching the case, none.


Would a 10 or 15 amp or higher fuse work and handle the load better? Or would something else go wrong?

Any further suggestions would be appreciated,. Thanks

rdaniel

[DavidLee]

Fuse size in 831 machine are 8, 8 and 5 amp for 6 volt 50 volt then 120 vac.
Sorry for the misinformation about the fuse size in a earlier post, was thinking pinball machine fuses.
Does the machine go off instantaneously when the hopper is replaced or does it take a few seconds?

Hopper just completes the circuits in the machine. The short wouldn't necessarily be in the hopper.
But that is where the payout relay is located
The winner paid light 6v and hopper motor 120v pass through the payout relay.
A complete detailed inspection might reveal something.
I like to use high powered magnifiers, the type worn on the head with plenty of light to get a better look at components.

Maybe take a good look at the fuse holders an related wiring, could be something has crossed the wires.   

[Op-Bell]

Aside from when it's paying out, the mere presence of the hopper puts it in one 50V circuit, the coin lockout solenoid, through a normally-closed contact on the win relay. One wire is probably brown, that's the 50V feed. That would be the first thing I'd look at if the fuse is blowing with no win and no other action. It comes in through the reel mech A-1 and C-1 switches on the mech left (closed at idle), then it goes through the win relay and back out to the dashpot switch at the back of the right hand side. After that on an 873 it goes up into the top box, through some contacts on the odds unit and back out to the coin lockout coil - that would be a good thing to look at first.

[Amechanic]

Try unplugging the two white molex plug that connect the door wiring to the cabinet. If your fuse still blows then your problem shouldn’t be on the door. If it doesn’t blow try plugging in one molex plug at a time.

[rdaniel]

I forgot to ad that its the 120 volt fuse which blows. I will see if your recommendations help.

Thanks all

rdaniel

[Op-Bell]

120V line (black wire) goes from the lower round pin of the beau plug to both the motor and the thrower solenoid. Green wire comes back from motor and solenoid to the two lower make contacts (wired together) on the inside of the win relay. The other side of these contacts (wired together) is white 120V neutral. You would be looking for a cut or chafed black wire on the hopper.
However, just because the 120V fuse blows doesn't mean the fault is in the 120V circuit. A fault on the 50V circuit will blow the 120V fuse as long as the fuse on the 50V circuit is more than 2.5 times the current on the 120V - say an 8 amp fuse on the 50V, and the 120V fuse is 3A.

[Amechanic]

Just a thought... What condition is your power cord if it still runs under the game cabinet and comes up through the floor?

[rdaniel]

 I tinkered around the inside of the machine this morning. I moved some wires around in the door to see if anything was in contact with the case. i also removed a ground wire which ran from one side of the lockout coil to ground (I am told it was meant to foil casino cheaters).

I then pulled the reel mech out from its beau plugs and pushed the  hopper into its beau plug. I then pushed the reel mech back in, turned on the electricity,  and what do you know! The machine started to work and pay out properly, no more blown fuses.

With the exception of the insert coin, coin accepted and winner paid lights all the rest of the lights work as they should. This includes the candle light during a winning combination.

Since the candle win light works, it would seem that the payout relay switch is at least partly working. That's the single pole, double       throw that controls lighting for the three other lights and the tower light.

I will check the payout relay switches to see if everything is making proper contact. It they are, I would appreciate other suggestions as to what could be the problem with those three lights.

Thanks again

rdaniel