Bally 1114 3-coin coin reject issue.

[shortrackskater]

I've had this machine for over 20 years now and had never fixed this problem: extra coins always went to the hopper, and not to the tray.
So... I finally got sick of this and investigated. 
I found that the wires to the lockout coil had been clipped and the lockout lever (to the coin mech) was bent back. I reattached the wires, and bent the lever back. I powered up and now it remained locked up - coins just drop through. But if I manually flip the coin lever, the lockout unlocks. It works fine at coin two and three, then the lockout engages as it should.
But just, moments after the cycle ends, it reverts back to locking out the coins again. You can hear it energized but about the same time the INSERT COIN light comes on, it de-energizes and coins drop through.
Hope this makes sense! I've been getting help from David Lee but I'm not the best at circuit tracing! I've checked contacts at multiple points with my ohmmeter but I'm still stuck. Hoping from my description I can be lead directly to a point in the reset cycle.

[Amechanic]

This is where the extension cables come in handy to find these type of problems.. With the reels out and hooked up, you can watch what's happening.. Sounds like you could have a relay sticking or not fully closing because the white plastic insulator that seperates the relays blade contacts could be worn or melted. Your close if your able to get it to accept coins once, but one of those many contacts needs just a little more cleaning or pressure to work a second time around..

[shortrackskater]

I know we talked about this on the phone I think, but is there any way to trace the ~50VAC source that's getting shut off, causing the coins to drop back in the tray?

[Amechanic]

I reached out to Jon by phone but got NA. I need to pull out schematic and see what I can find. Did you clean the male and female beau plugs?

[Jon]

I am working on a basic understanding of the rejection
Solenoid
I did get your voicemail Gary I will post a diagram in a little bit

[Amechanic]

He’s referring to the scavenger coil behind the coin mech.

[Jon]

 yes I know what you call it this is out of the book


Coin lockout coil


And yes 95% of the time when I see this coil not working it is a dirty plug 5% of the time it is a dirty switch


And this is where I must agree with old Reno we all need to use the same manual then we all refer to the switches the same way and solenoids he is much more affluent speaking about these parts than I am I worked on these machines for a living many many years ago they are not hard to figure out it is just electricity going through a switch


I am still trying to figure out the best way to explain it give me a little bit more time and I will put a diagram up with red highlighted marks I do not have the 1 1 1 4 manual schematic if somebody has one I would love them to post it on my Facebook page so the world can have it it is the same as any other machine they are all the same basic wiring simple

[DavidLee]

Looking at a schematic for a 1088, so your machine may vary. According to the schematic the insert coin lite and coin lockout coil circuits run through the Reel Mech. C-2 and C-3 switch. Going from the description of the light coming on and the coil momentarily operating. I would look closely at this switch. As everything is working except when the clock link slide lever reaches a certain point thus opening the circuit to the lockout coil. Also check the steel limiter between the contacts, it maybe out of position. And the return spring, it could be interfering with the switch. 

[shortrackskater]

What's bugging me is, nothing is changing position-wise, with those reel switch sets, when I manually flip the coin-in switch. But, again, when the cycle starts, the coins are locked out until the very end when it engages (unlocks) briefly, then locks the coins out again (non energized). I hope this makes sense. I'm really NOT good at troubleshooting these machines - very frustrating.
The other thing I notice is the clock link slide lever has considerable wobble but I don't see anything broken.

[Jon]

 here's the theory of operation for that coil after your last statement I would like you to call me on the phone




You can either I M me or you can get my phone number from Gary we will get this figured out for you you know us we're good

[shortrackskater]

Thanks Jon! I'll start again when I get home today.
DavidLee (and everyone else) - On power up, the lockout doesn't disengage as it should. But when I flip the coin in switch manually, it then releases until the third coin, then it locks out, releases just a tad before the end of the cycle, then locks out again!
I can duplicate the same thing by manually flipping the switch once (coin one), then closing the door and entering the next two quarters.
This should catch the thread up from a couple of PM discussions.

[OldReno]

Look for maladjusted open at 4th odds switch (open at max coins) in your top unit . Activated by tabs on nylon odds gear.

[shortrackskater]

Look for maladjusted open at 4th odds switch (open at max coins) in your top unit . Activated by tabs on nylon odds gear.

Thanks!
I had to take a break from this machine, but I will get back to it soon. It's next in line.

[shortrackskater]

Look for maladjusted open at 4th odds switch (open at max coins) in your top unit . Activated by tabs on nylon odds gear.

Thanks!
I had to take a break from this machine, but I will get back to it soon. It's next in line.

Look for maladjusted open at 4th odds switch (open at max coins) in your top unit . Activated by tabs on nylon odds gear.

Thanks!
I had to take a break from this machine, but I will get back to it soon. It's next in line.

Ok I'm back. I should have waited two more days to make it four full years! 
Time just flew by, I had some surgeries (that didn't work  ) and had to move. I've finally got back to this machine.
There were two more problems that came up... a bad coin-in switch and a bad diverter coil. Both are working now.
However I'm back to my original problem which I'll restate here.
At power up... coins fall into tray. But if you manually flip the coin-in switch once  (three coin multiplier), then the lockout disengages (meaning the coil is energized)  At that point, you can insert two more coins, then the lockout ENGAGES as it should (coil de-energized). After the pull of the handle, the lockout disengages as it should but when the cycle completes, it engages the lockout (coil de-energized). If there is a payout, it remains energized, but when the payout completes, it goes back to lockout or de-energized coil.
I've checked various switches including the C3 on the reel bundle, as well as all the rest.
Old Reno said to check the 4th odds switch. My top unit has lights in it and that's it. The odds unit is on the left size of the reel bundle. I have a schematic but not for the 1114. I've added a photo showing where I'm tracing. I'd THINK that if I can just keep following the 50v line to the point of where it breaks, that I'd reach a switch that's out of line or out of position when the cycle stops. BUT... what bugs me is the fact that the lockout IS disengaged as it should be while the hopper pays out? At the end of the payout though... CLICK... it locks out the coins again.
Again I'm NOT experienced with EM's all that much. So, go easy on me... Jim, Wolftalk, David, Old Reno, or .
(Since I've posted, we've lost Gary/Amechanic. )

[shortrackskater]

I've just realized that most on this thread have either died or haven't logged on in quite some time.

Can ANY of our GREAT EM people help your friendly Admin with his Bally??? This is a resurrected topic that I had to abandon in 2019. Gary was helping me a little... wish I could resurrect him! 

[OldReno]

The open at max odds switch on your odds disk turns off the lockout coil after max coins in thus rejecting coins. The associated coin relay switch allows lockout to turn back on if max coins are played. It is really only needed if max coins played, because anything less than max, the lockout will be powered thru the max odds sw.
If max odds always closed it takes infinite coins. If max odds always open, machine will take only 1 coin.
If associated coin relay switch is always closed, will take infinite coins.
If the coin relay sw is always open, machine will tak coins only until max coins are played one time.
I think your coin relay sw is bad, or not making contact. Pretty positive that’s the problem

[shortrackskater]

Thanks Craig! I deleted that post for you.  And, don't worry... I FORGOT that I had started that thread anyway. 
63mini - Ed was smart enough to notice it here!
I'll start poking around that area. I assume that's the coin relay just to the right of the mech?

[wolftalk]

1114, 1114-2 and 1114-6  schematics are on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

the games mainly have the coin scavenger system instead of a coin lockout coil ... except the 1114-6 which appears to have both with inconsistent labeling on the schem.

I don't recall seeing a scavenger system in detail, but from the schematic the coin scavenger coil powers when the game wants to reject a coin, which is opposite how the coin lockout coil worked. 

got a picture of the inside of the coin door?  If having trouble posting one due to size, send it to slotpics@cdyn.com and I'll resize and post it to the topic.

[shortrackskater]

My reject coil powers to allow the coin to drop to the hopper... or energizes.
I have Jim and Ed helping me by text. Ed found two switches on the reel mech - one was supposed to be open and one closed.
As of now I'm back to the original problem:
No coins accepted... UNLESS you manually flip the coin-in switch. Then it WILL allow two more coins. (3 coin mult.)
Whether you trip it once or three times: The machine will cycle. During the cycle the coil is engaged, or energized. Once the cycle ends, it then de-energized and locks out.
IF there is a payout, it remains energized (proper) but when the hopper stops, it reverts back to locking out, or de-energized.
I'm not sure what you mean by the coin door.
Here's a shot of the door, coin mech removed.
Thank you! 

[wolftalk]

you are describing the almost correct behavior for the scavenger coil on a 1114 .  See circuit below.

problem is, you have the 31-1 wire connected to a coin lockout coil, not a scavenger solenoid coil, so the behaviour is opposite what you need.

if you look in the bally 2400 manual page 83, you can see what the scavenger coil looked like (parts 57-66) - see below.   

electronic scavenging may have only been used on $1 machine or machines with heavy coins/tokens.

it's possible someone converted your machine to quarters and swapped in the more typical coin mech frame and lockout coil ... then said "oops".

on the 1114-6, it looks like they made wire 31-1 attach to an added relay coil (called the coin scavenger coil and/or coin lockout relay, depending on where ya look).  A pair of redundant NC switches on that relay controlled the coin lockout coil behind the mech.

in effect, the added relay inverted the behavior of the original scavenger circuit: scavenger circuit powered = coin lockout coil NOT powered and vice-versa.

you would need to do the same thing or rewire your game using the typical circuit for a coin lockout coil. 

which way you go kinda depends on how much of the "correct" behavior you want. 

if you just care about the games rejecting 4+ coins inserted, you can rewire the coin unit "make at top" switch to be an "open at top" and jumper a couple wires together at the coin relay.

the behavior would still be wrong during payouts, reel spins and possibly when the handle was partway down if you have a handle microswitch.

I'm guessing someone fiddled the "coin unit make at top" switch to be always closed or be an open-at-top switch, which is why your lockout coil is powering after the coin relay trips.

fwiw, the electronic scavenging approach had the advantage of not holding a coin lockout coil powered for hours.  The unpowered behavior was accept a coin.  A similar circuit was common on some bally pinball machines - especially ones with multiple coin chutes where one solenoid could cause all the coin mechs to reject when the game didn't want coins. 

sorry about the "coin door" phrasing ... was thinking about the pinballs at the time.  I just meant the door, so your pic is great.