Bally 1114 3-coin coin reject issue.

[shortrackskater]

Working today but I'll get to this tomorrow afternoon.

Sooooooo... I got this machine probably 25 years ago. It always would just take any amount of coins after three; they'd drop in the hopper and the machine would remain at max bet unless you then inserted one or two.
Back in 2019 (as seen in this thread!), I decided to figure this out.
And what I found, I've realized, is consistent with what you stated. The lockout plate was bent backwards and the coil wires were cut!
I just though, then, that they just bypassed it due to the familiar "buzzzzzz" that is so common in these.
It never occurred to me that this may have been a different denomination. I can't see anything that shows it was changed though. Everything looks like it is as/is right out of the Frontier Hotel, other than what I found with the coil and wires.

[63mini]

Mark,

 Can you post a photo of the relay below the red arrow as this seems like an add on.  I would like to see the wire colors on the back side.

[DavidLee]

Try pushing in on the ratchet link when the machine is not working properly.
Ratchet link is black with ratchet wheel attached, location center left side of reel mechanism.
The C-3 switch is part of the lock out coil circuit in most cases.

When pushing the link, listen and observe the lock out mechanism.

[shortrackskater]

Mark,

 Can you post a photo of the relay below the red arrow as this seems like an add on.  I would like to see the wire colors on the back side.

Here it is.

[shortrackskater]

Try pushing in on the ratchet link when the machine is not working properly.
Ratchet link is black with ratchet wheel attached, location center left side of reel mechanism.
The C-3 switch is part of the lock out coil circuit in most cases.

When pushing the link, listen and observe the lock out mechanism.

David:
I used a dowel to push in on the linkage to the ratchet. About 1/4" inch in, the coin mech lockout releases (energizes coil) and game simply sits at 1 coin in with the handle staying locked. Additional flips of the coin switch do nothing.

[shortrackskater]

Wolftalk:
Thanks for all that!
However my brain is still confused. I can't see any markings that this took dollars. I would have thought I'd see some evidence or markings on the machine.
The other thing I'm lost with is - my Bally 742a works the same way. It's only one coin, but once the machine cycles, the coin relay energizes, removing the lockout to allow the next coin in. After the coin is inserted, it de-energizes and locks out.

[wolftalk]

Wolftalk:
However my brain is still confused. I can't see any markings that this took dollars. I would have thought I'd see some evidence or markings on the machine.

that's why I snuck in the word "may" on the comment about electronic scavenging being dollar machines :-)

the only place I've seen electronic scavenging in the parts manuals is on a page labelled "$1.00 Front Door Assembly".

the model 1102, 1112, 1113, 1114 and 1115 machines were mainly dollars.  However, they did make 25c versions of some of them.  The -5, -7,  -9 and -13 were all 1114 models that were 25c. 

unfortunately, I don't have the schematics for any of the 25c versions, so I don't know if bally removed the electronic scavenging on those machines and used the coin lockout coil circuits and mechanical scavenging (the red coin return button pivots a bar to push down the reject lever on the coin mech).

if your game model number is just 1114 and it's the correct serial plate, then it was a dollar game when it left the factory.  Converting to a different coin can usually be done by changing a few coin path parts, the glass, the pinwheel and maybe the coin knife in the hopper.

wrt to the 742A, it was designed to use a coin lockout coil, not an electronic scavenging coil.  All machines with a coin lockout coil use a similar circuit to control the coil to achieve the goal - when the game wants to accept a coin, the lockout coil is powered.

electronic scavenging is the opposite - when the game wants to accept a coin, the scavenge solenoid coil is NOT powered.

therefore, you cannot remove the electronic scavenging coil and connect a coin lockout coil in its place without making other changes.   The game would only accept a coin when it doesn't want one.

someone found that out and disabled your coin lockout completely ... possibly after trying a few workarounds to make the lockout coil power sometimes.   You cannot make the game work correctly without changing the original circuit.

the added relay to invert the electronic scavenge circuit is how bally dealt with the problem on the 1114-6 - though the schem says it's still a dollar game.

to make your game work right, you can either:

1] do exactly what the 1114-6 shows ... leave all the original 1114 circuits alone except wire 31-1 on the scavenger solenoid coil, add a relay with a couple redundant NC switches and a 8200 ohm resistor.  Wire 31-1 powers the new relay coil and the switches connect wire 30 to the lockout coil.

2] rewire the circuit controlling the lockout coil to make it like the conventional circuit.  You'd need to pick almost any game as an example, and you'd need to change the type of a switch on the coin relay (NO to NC) and a coin unit "top" switch (close-at-top to open-at-top), along with disconnecting some existing switches.

3] hijack the level relay for [1] above.  The relay 63mini asked about is the level relay.  It powers when the hopper is full and unpowers the diverter coil to send the coins to the dump.  It's on the door because lowboy games don't have a lot of room in the cabinet.

any of of the above will make the game work correctly at all times. 

if you have a relay or can source one, that's probably easier than option [2], mainly due to the type changes needed for the switches. 

if there's no easy way to install in another relay, I'd do [3] and strap down the diverter so coins always go in the hopper.  If the hopper overflows or gets so full you get more frequent coin jams, remove a bunch of coins from the hopper and spend them on something frivolous.

[shortrackskater]

Original ID plate.

[wolftalk]

ok, so it's a 1114-13 and left the factory as a 25c machine.   You coulda skipped a lot of painful reading if you gave the complete model number at the beginning :-)

so now you need to see what is in the game ... probably the quickest thing is look at/post a picture of the coin relay and the ratchet side of the coin unit.

on the coin relay, if there is a switch with wires 30 and 58-3 that is open when the coin relay is untripped and the 58-3 wire goes to a close-at-top switch on the coin unit, the game was designed with electronic scavenging circuits. 

based on your behavior description, I'm betting it does have the e-scavenge stuff ... but maybe like the 1114-6 it also has a coin lockout relay in there someplace so it can drive a coin lockout coil correctly.

[shortrackskater]

ok, so it's a 1114-13 and left the factory as a 25c machine.   You coulda skipped a lot of painful reading if you gave the complete model number at the beginning :-)

so now you need to see what is in the game ... probably the quickest thing is look at/post a picture of the coin relay and the ratchet side of the coin unit.

on the coin relay, if there is a switch with wires 30 and 58-3 that is open when the coin relay is untripped and the 58-3 wire goes to a close-at-top switch on the coin unit, the game was designed with electronic scavenging circuits. 

based on your behavior description, I'm betting it does have the e-scavenge stuff ... but maybe like the 1114-6 it  also has a coin lockout relay in there someplace si it can drive a coin lockout coil correctly.

Sorry!! 
I didn't even think of putting in the full model number. I thought the addition digits were just "simple" variations on the machines.
Well the reading was fun. When I get this going (I hope), I'll edit the thread since I'm a moderator of sorts. 

[shortrackskater]

So, at this juncture, are we saying that the machine likely has a problem,  and the decades-old "fix" (cutting the wires to the coin reject coil and bending the armature back (no lockout ever) was just a band-aid to a solvable problem? I hope. I hope.

I'll go ahead and post the other requested photos. 

[shortrackskater]

I removed the coin odds unit and took some photos of switch positions. 
Also found two tags stuck waaaaaay in the back, that worry me.  Look at the red tag.
Last photo: what the heck does that do? 

[wolftalk]

your first pic is the coin unit step-up arm switch, and it has wire 75-5 on one blade.  Can't see the other blade, but it should be wire 30.  So far, so good.

second pic are the ratchet pin switches (open/close/make/break at zero/top).  You have two open-at-top switches and two open-at-zero (zero=unit reset) switches.  Can't see any wire colors.

two open-at-zero sounds right.  One open-at-top shoould have wires 36-2 and 71-2 that turns off the insert coin light when the 3rd coin is played.

the other switch per the schems should be close at top, but open-at-top makes sense for a game with a coin lockout coil.

third pic dunno.  Sometimes tags like that were used when they ran out of the correct wire color and substituted something else ... but why it says 1088 on it ...

4th pic dunno.  Is the can thing in the 4th pic a buzzer?  I'd take it out of the clamp and see what it says on it.

Afaik, bally did not use three-color wire, and you have a relay with a screw terminal socket with a wh/brn/grn or wh/red/grn wire attached to a lug.  Where does that wire go?

still like to see pics of the entire front of the game, the entire inside of the door, and the entire left side of the reel mech.

it looks like you'll need to do some investigation of wiring and wire colors to see what is going on.

[shortrackskater]

That can is a big capacitor. It's a flasher. I'm an idiot. 

[wolftalk]

a 3-terminal capacitor with two terminals used.  Not obvious what the third terminal - you'd need to get a part number off the can.

the relay socket is also non-obvious.

I'd look where the white/brn/grn wire and the orange wire on the right are going.  Also pull out the relay and use an ohmeter to determine which screw lugs connect to which relay pins.  I'd also take a pic of the relay ... one side of it usually has the specs and pinout definition.  Mainly want to know if it's a 6V relay or a 50V relay.

I assume the orange wire on the right is connected to multiple screw terminals on the relay socket.  See red arrows in below pic.

it kinda looks like the relay is capable of disconnecting the 6V completely and some of the 50V circuits, with the cap giving a fade-out effect on the lights rather than an abrupt shutoff.

I'd guess bally did not install that thing.

wrt the coin lockout coil, the bally 7200 manual for E2000 series games shows different door assemblies for dollar vs. 5c-50c games.  Dollar used electronic scavenging and the 5c-50c games used a lockout coil.

that still leaves the question of how the game is supposed to work with a lockout coil.  Can't see the wiring on the pin switches - purple circle below.  Also need to see the coin relay switches and wiring.

[shortrackskater]

I'm sorry I'm throwing you off with my non-knowledge.
I certainly should know what a cap looks like. I've been shocked by one or two. 
It's a Tung Sol 535 6v flasher! 

Stand by for answers to other questions.

[wolftalk]

flasher eh ... ok, so someone decided to flash all the 6V stuff in the game - including the bell - when the relay is powered (probably).  Now ya need to see under what condition the relay powers ... could be a jackpot, full hopper, empty hopper, door open, ...

it's a thermal flasher, so it more-or-less works like a 455 flash lamp.

it's possible the lockout coil is also effected by the relay, but you're going to need to stick on your miner's helmet and see how the lockout coil is being controlled.

[shortrackskater]

Last night I'm just staring at the machine wondering what blinks. No top light for change, a win situation simply illuminates "winner paid."
Never thought that of dang bell! 
And the funny thing is that I hit three bars a few days ago while cycling the machine and, sure enough... RING RING RING RING RING. I was only thinking light and not sound.
I'll do some checking and report back.
Please stand by.

[shortrackskater]

Photo 1 - The orange wire on that relay leads to a terminal block on the left, then connects to a blue/white wire that makes it way up and to the left of the cabinet on what looks like a switch relay. (?)

Photo 2 - The white/Brown/Green wire makes its way to the reel assembly plug on the left (If you're facing the machine) and connects to the two pins circled in red. UPDATED, look ahead!

Photo 3 - Just for fun, I measured the voltage at these two points. When it's energized (or NOT locked out), the voltage reads 52VAC. When it's de-energized (locked out) it measures about 24VAC.

[wolftalk]

the complete answer will probably require pulling the relay on the flasher gizmo to see what it is - part number, voltage and pinout diagram - and map the wires on the connector screws to the relay pins (quick pokes with continuity/ohms should do it).

I'm assuming it's a 6V relay, otherwise things will get very odd.

photo 1 in post 38 is the hinge switch.  To make sense of the circuit, you may need to position the switch the way it would be with the door closed.  i.e. jam paper or something in there when the door is open.

one question is when the coin lockout coil is powered, does it unpower if you open the door?

so far I can't think of a way the gizmo could be connected that makes the flashing relevant AND it interacts with the lockout coil.  It looks like they disconnected wire 20 from the fuse and inserted the flasher gizmo into the circuit.  Assuming the flasher works, all the lights and bell would be affected when the relay powered/unpowered.

maybe someone hacked in a modification, and they just disabled lockout when their modification didn't work right or it had a side affect they weren't expecting.

once the gizmo is understood, then ya know what they were trying to do.  Maybe the answer is rip out the gizmo and make it work like the factory would have done it.

tmi
----

per the 1114 schem, the hinge switch on that game has two separate switches inside it.

it looks like your switch has 6 terminals?  If so, that would imply it has two SPDT switches inside, I'd assume the bottom lugs are the common ones.

if the orange wire 70 is connected to the left bottom lug, then the red/green wire isn't used for anything (it just goes to a terminal strip) and you wind up with:

1] when the door is closed, wire 70 connects to 63-2, so the chime and meters have power.

2] when the door is open, wire 70 connects to 25-6 ... which on the terminal block connects to your relay/flasher gizmo.  However, there's already a wire 70 directly from the fuse to the flasher relay, so if the idea was the gizmo relay was cutting off the 50V to part of the game, they'd have to be very careful how they did that since normally wire 70 goes everywhere.

the usual reason for involving the lights/bell with a door switch is to either ring the bell and flash the lights when the door opens (alarm) or shut up the bell during a hand jackpot pay.

any chance your lights flash and bell rings intermittently when you open the door?

---------------------------

photo 2 I opened a new bottle of ardbeg for :-)

the upper right corner pin looking into a socket in that orientation is pin 1, so that would be wire 18-2 and it connects to the insert coin lamp.

the round pin you indicated would be pin 14, which is wire 70 ... the 50V power.

so ... please say you determined the white/brown/green wire connections with a continuity tester and didn't unscrew the connector and look ... 'cause connecting 18-2 to 70 would blow fuses and the light bulb at certain times.

it's possible your hopper wiring is different from all the  1113, 1114 and 1115 schems I have with an 18 pin reel plug tho.  If you have a mirror maybe you can verify the connection and wire colors with it ... if not, I'd unscrew the connector and flip it around to see.

photo 3 measuring 23V is probably fine.  When the coil is unpowered, one side of it may be floating - not connected to anything - so you are seeing phantom voltage.  In most bally designs tho there is a resistor from the wire 31 side of the coil to wire 30, so you'd actually measure almost zero when the coin lockout coil is unpowered.