Bally 861 unstable and wrong payout

[SPN]

Hi


I restore an 861 and I have problems with the hopper that emptying all the coins when I hit a winning combination..
The pivot arm don’t react to the coins but if I push the step up coil manually it pays out correctly, can it be a dead coil or bad connection somewhere?


 

[wolftalk]

what's an 861?  A slim line/narrower machine version of an 809?  Got any paperwork for it?


in any case, if the pivot arm can't be lowered enough for a coin to operate it, then most likely the pinwheel/disc is the wrong one for the diameter of coins in the game.


pictures would be great ... if you have highest possible resolutions ones, please email to slotpics@cdyn.com.  I'll downsize them and post them here.

[SPN]

I thought it was an 809 but it says 861, and I found out that it was made for the Swedish marked in 1970, I can’t find the different yet but maybe it’s only the glass and that it have two coin in thing..


The pivo arm don’t work even when I press it down with my finger like it should normally do so that’s not the problem, but when I press down the step up coil it works..


I don’t have the key to the top glass so I can’t check if there’s any problem related in the feature unit, what do you think about that, should I drill the lockers and check?


I can take some more pictures and send you tomorrow since it’s midnight here now (Norway)

Thanks

[wolftalk]

the slim line slots had cabinets 14-1/2 inches (~37cm) wide and the handle was moved down.  The pivot point of the handle was pretty much in the center of the belly glass, and the design took space from the hopper so it held less coins.  Your handle top looks like the normal place, so probably not a slim line game. 


the 809's did have a chrome piece around the top compartment which you don't have.

assuming it's an 809-like machine, then the only check you can make without access to the top compartment is to see if you have 50V between orange wire 70 (on any convenient coil) and the red/white wires 15-2 on the hopper switches during payout.

if you don't have 50V, then a payout relay switch  or hopper plug connection with wire 60-1 on it should be checked. 

if you have a "total out" meter and it's incrementing, no need to check voltage as everything is ok to wire 15-2 and you'll need to get into the top.   

if it doesn't matter how many coins are played, then jackpot lockup relay switches, a wiper finger on the odds unit or a bad payout counter step-up coil are the most likely things.

[SPN]

It does look like I have 50v when payout but the step up coil don’t work, I’m not sure about the other wire that’s connected to the step up  coil and it looks like the total out meter is working..


When I insert 1-5 coins it payouts only as if I play 1 coin, so I guess I must get in the top?

[wolftalk]

When I insert 1-5 coins it payouts only as if I play 1 coin, so I guess I must get in the top?

you mean when manually stepping the payout counter?  That would be right.  Multiplied payouts on games with electrically stepped payout counter/unit are handled by stepping the payout counter/unit once for every X coins ejected, where X is the number of coins played.


you could jumper orange/white wire 75 on the hopper switches to red/green wire 14-3 on the payout counter step-up coil.  The game should pay 1 coin wins correctly and that'll prove the step-up coil is ok.


after that, time drill or pick the lock and get into the top.  You good with the schematic and what's between the hopper switches and the payout counter step-up coil? 


I guess one other test you could do is make a >200 win.   That causes the jackpot lockup relays to power and changes the circuit paths to the payout counter step-up coil.  The payout counter should step up once for every two coins ejected.

[SPN]

I have drilled the locks to the top and after taken the feature unit out and cleaned the beauplug and I had to change the step up coil the pivot arm now working and paying out but not the correct coins..






Shown under you can see what I won with one coin..


1 xCherry paid  2  (2) correct payout
2 x cherrys paid 5  (5) correct payout
3 x oranges paid 7  (10) 3 less
3 x Plums paid 10  (14)  4 less
3 x bells paid 13    (18)  5 less
3 x any bar paid 13 (20) 7 less
3 x one bar paid 35 (50) 15 less

And sometimes more or less, unstable payout around the numbers there was paid out..

Your the best and thanks for all your help so far sir!

[wolftalk]

assuming the game is not shutting down completely, underpay is usually caused by cruddy payout counter traces. 


take a look at the payout counter when a pay ended and see where the wipers are. 


example: for a 10 pay, the contacts on the wiper fingers should be one step off the end of the "10" trace. 


if the wipers are still on the 10 trace, then the wiper->trace connection is bad.  Clean the traces and if necessary the wipers (you have to take them off).


if the wipers are in the correct place on the payout counter when the pay ended, then either the unit double stepped (arcing or the hopper switches aren't closing/opening at the same time), or the payout counter step up arm pawl is grabbing more than one tooth on the ratchet on some steps (if your arm unpowered position is screw adjustable for travel distance ... some aren't)

[SPN]

When I press the step up coil it counts 10 as it should but when I press the pivot arm it only counts 7 when it suppose to count 10 so I guess the problem is not on the payout unit, or? 😊

[DavidLee]

Post photos of both sides of the pivot arm assembly.
Will take a look.

[wolftalk]

When I press the step up coil it counts 10 as it should but when I press the pivot arm it only counts 7 when it suppose to count 10 so I guess the problem is not on the payout unit, or? 😊

I don't understand what you mean.

whether you are pushing in the step-up solenoid plunger yourself or having the game electrically do it by closing the three hopper switches at the top of your picture, the payout relay should stay powered and the hopper turned on until the payout counter traces step off the end of active pay trace ... unless an error is detected and the game shuts down.

what you care about is where the wipers are on the payout counter when the payout stopped.  e.g. did the payout counter step 7 times or 10 times when you have a 3 orange win and coins are stepping the payout counter?

if the payout counter is correctly stepped 10 times, but only seven coins came out, there's a few possibilities.   The oddest one someone recently posted about is the coins are lifting the roller/closing the hopper switches ok, but some are falling back into the hopper instead of ejecting out of the machine due to an issue with the coin path.  He found the problem by taking a video of the hopper during payout and slowing it down.

other possibilities are arcing hopper switches are making the payout counter intermittently step more than once per coin, or if the payout step-up arm position is adjustable, the pawl is sometimes grabbing two ratchet teeth instead of one so it's counting one coin as two.

[SPN]

Yes it looks like the payout counter steps more than once per coin since I emptied the hopper for coins and tried it out by pushing the pivot arm with my finger and it stopped after counting 7 coins when I should get 10..


Here’s another picture of the payout unit with the pivot arm



I can make a video of the issue and send it if that helps?




Sorry if I don’t make my self clear, not my best area combines with English 🙈

[DavidLee]

Best to thoroughly clean the pivot arm contacts. Lightly lube all pertaining parts.
Set a coin directly under the roller, check for continuity on all pertaining switches.
Remove coin and re-check for the absence of continuity.
Check for any impairment to the switch blades as in cracked, obstructions, poor
solder joints or loose / broken wires.


Manually operating the pivot arm might have a different effect than the actual machine movement, thus giving a false positive results.

As in more or less pressure, travel distance, and duration.

[wolftalk]

this is probably one for david or someone who's seen a lot of machines.


I put the two videos you sent me here:


http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/861/pics/payout%20counter%20ratchet%20stepping.MOV


http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/861/pics/payout%20counter%20stepping%20problem.MOV


your step-up arm pawl is grabbing two teeth sometimes when the unit is electrically stepped (easier to see in second video).  Manually stepping isn't creating enough force to cause the two-tooth engagement.


could be:
- loose coil stop
- worn/broken/incorrect coil stop
- worn plunger
- worn step-up arm pivot points allowing the pawl to move too far left
- worn teeth on the ratchet
- not enough tension on the reset torsion spring


for the last one, the ratchet should rotate counter-clockwise as the step-up arm pawl pulls left until a tooth hits the reset pawl.


anyway, hopefully david has seen something like this before.  If not, I'd definitely take off the coil stop and plunger to see if you can spot a problem, and when operating by hand push the plunger into the coil as fast and hard as you can ... or push hard and see how close to a tooth edge the step-up pawl is and see if a ratchet tooth is touching the reset pawl.

[DavidLee]

Inspect the ratchet forward pawl and the hold pawl for alignment on the payout step up unit ratchet wheel.


Isolate the contacts that actually send current to the step up coil.
Operate or short across this set of contacts.
Pushing down on the contacts and releasing quickly one time then pause, repeat.
Observe the movement of the step up unit. It should step accordingly.

[SPN]

After doing what you wrote I finally found a broken coil stopper that I took apart and changed, so now it seems to work as it should and I will play a couple of hundred coins to see if it finally works as it should over time..


I could never made it without you guys, thank you so much