Bally Part ID

[GOS]

the somehow you mention - i referred to in an earlier post - the 847 did not have multipier units - has a stepup sole purpose of tracking number of coins played and would pulse up after a payout finished and reset hopper to zero and restart the next coin payout

[cmk8895]

Thank you!!!  I'm back to blowing my 50v fuse now, so need to figure that out.  Maybe this will help.

[wolftalk]

if you start using a lot of fuses, get one of these at the correct amperage:


https://www.amazon.com/Yoiilnz-125-250VAC-Circuit-Overload-Protector/dp/B086J3JS3N


add a couple wires with alligator clips and you can clip it onto the fuse holder ... or permanently install it in the game in place of the fuse.

the somehow you mention - i referred to in an earlier post - the 847 did not have multipier units - has a stepup sole purpose of tracking number of coins played and would pulse up after a payout finished and reset hopper to zero and restart the next coin payout

the odds follower unit was mostly used on mechanically stepped payout counter multiplier machines.  Since cmk's machine is electrically stepped, there's more options on how to handle payout multiplication.


in the bally design, the circuits that determined if a payout counter reset was needed were fed from the odds disc and went thru the odds follower disc.  cmk's machine doesn't appear to have enough wires attached to the odds disc (presumably) to handle the lamps and use a bally-style odds follower, so I left it as "somehow".


I'd bet you're right tho and the box on his machine does something like the odds follower unit without needing to know the odds unit step position, so it has to keep track of number of coins played itself.


once the game is running, the proof will be whether the payout counter is reset and the pay repeated when 2+ coins are played.




       

[cmk8895]

Weekend updates:


I figured out what is causing the fuses to blow.  On the back of "the part" that was the original question in this thread are two coils.  The upper, vertical coil has two orange wires on it and one orange wire that looks to have fallen off, the other end of which is one of the tabs on the disc.  Whenever I hook up this orange wire, a fuse blows on payout.  So I'm leaving it unhooked for now and going to start through troubleshooting more routinely.


In that vein....


Wire tracing did not go well, but I did find out that the 'extra' bit on reel board #2 in previous pictures is actually supposed to be there.  It is called out on the reel board wiring diagram for the 809 and is a direct link to several wires on reel board #1.  Other than that I didn't get very far on wire tracing. 


So, where am I at?  Machine cleaned and lubed.  1 coin everything plays fine mostly.  Once in a while there are off-by-one coin payout issues, but no biggie.  After ~50-55 coins, the timer cuts off power, though, so my next task is to get the timer out of there and reset it to a more reasonable timeframe before cutoff.


I'll report back once the timer issue is fixed, at which point I can give specifics on what is / isn't working with 2 coin insertion.  Like I said, stepwise.   

[wolftalk]

timing out during payout means the safety motor is not getting reset.


there's a microswitch riding on a cam above the payout counter ratchet.  That switch opens every few steps of the payout counter and the circuit disconnect causes the safety motor to reset.  The goal is to detect if the payout counter is not stepping and shut the machine down before it dumps the hopper contents out to the very happy player.

the usual problem is the delay relay isn't working.  If the delay relay isn't powering, the safety motor runs while the hopper motor is running and the shutdown happens in a few seconds.

if the delay relay is powering but the capacitor or diode have problems, the delay relay may unpower while the microswitch is open and the safety motor won't reset all the way.  After a few cycles of that the safety motor will reach the shutdown position.


the delay relay should never unpower while the payout relay is powered.


a bad capacitor is most common problem, followed by bad diode.  The diode can be replaced with a more common 1N4004 or 1N4007 instead of a 1N2070.
 
all that stuff is in the 120V circuits, so be careful poking around in it.

[DavidLee]

Sometimes you will find 2 orange wires on the same soldered joint.
This is just an continuation of the common orange.

Hooking two oranges together normally shouldn't be a problem as they in theory all lead back to the transformer.
Best to trace the problematic orange back and or check for continuity between the two.

Using high powered magnifying headgear most broken solder connections and loose wires will leave evidence to there placement.
If solder has been applied it disturbs the evidence.
   
 

[cmk8895]

@DavidLee:  Your simple recommendation was exactly what I needed.  Sometimes we get so deep into a problem we miss the easy ones.  I took the reel unit out and did wire tracing off the disc where the orange wire hooked.  There were only two places that the other end of the orange wire would go and they were tied together anyway, so easy enough.  I found that a cut wire that I had reconnected actually had to be cut.  When attached, at one position of the "wheel" from the original pics, it would feed a relay +50V to both sides of the relay, causing it to short out and blow the fuse.  Disconnected that wire, connected the orange wire and we're back in business.


So, where am I now?


I still need to get the timer out of there and clean / adjust it.  It's the only part in the whole machine I haven't cleaned because I don't immediately see how it is held in the case.  But I'll get there soon since it is cutting off all my payouts after ~50-55 coins.


Multi-coin payout are also working!  I can set to 5 coin, single cherry win, and it pays out 9-10 nickels every time.  That "wheel" is going CRAZY while that happens.  It's not a clean countdown of "this is the 5th coin payout, this is the 4th coin payout," it just jumps all over the place around it's various connections.  Once I figure out how to get my phone in there without any beau extension cables I will get a video for you guys.


Now a logic of operation question....  I realize nobody is quite sure how my machine is working with that wheel.  But in general, if I play one coin and get a 50 coin win, vs 5 coins with a 10 coin win on each coin, are those the same thing to the electronics?  I thought they were different with some kind of hopper reset on the 5x10 payout, but the timer still stops the machine at the same point on either a 1x50 or a 5x10 payout.  Can someone teach me if these should behave differently with a timer reset in between each of the 5 10 payouts?


Thank you all for the continued support.  I never knew I had a Frankenstein machine and had hoped to simply get some reference material to help myself and not be the multiple question asker.  But here we are. 

[DavidLee]

Removal and cleaning the timer isn’t really necessary.
It’s just a motor with an dial indicator on it.
Inspect it for obstructions like coins and or hardware, nuts, bolts, screws, or springs.
Add more time by realigning the indicator, average is 15 to 20 seconds.
But, since the machine has more components to deal with, try 25 to 30 seconds.
In non casino use it doesn’t matter, rarely the hopper will continue to run and empty the machine.


I believe there’s a micro switch that resets safety timer back every few coins.
Wolftalk would know more about that.

[wolftalk]

the timer is not really related to the win amount.


ignoring the multiplying, a win will usually power the trace on the payout counter that matches the payout amount.  e.g.  you are supposed to win 10, then the 10 trace is powered.   


the exceptions are:


1] pays >200 usually pay 200 then lock up to hand pay the rest


2] some machines - typically multipliers - use additional units to step the payout counter less frequently than once per coin.   They could in theory use those units to use something like a 10 trace to pay 20 coins, but the only time that could be needed is when a game had a large pay table with lots of different pay amounts.


below is a pic of the back side of a payout counter.  The microswitch is what is supposed to be resetting the timer, but it doesn't do it directly.  The delay relay needs to be working also to get the circuit connected to the microswitch.  Most likely your delay relay is not working.


if you don't care about a problem causing the hopper to dump out all the coins, you can just disconnect the timer motor or misadjust the delay relay switches so they never close (put paper between contacts or whatever).

the delay relay is usually on the hopper and has the capacitor soldered to switches on it ... looks like it's in the background in the below picture.   On a bally game, the delay relay coil usually has black wire 80 and green wire 40 on the lugs.

bonus tmi below:
-------------------


if you want to make sense of the safety timer circuit on the schem, it helps to know that the safety timer works kinda like a stopwatch:


1] the motor mechanism is spring loaded.  If it loses power, it resets back to time zero.


2] when the motor is powered,  it's slowly rotating an arm.  If it rotates far enough, the arm opens the main power circuit and the game completely shuts down except the neon light on the timer case.


the microswitch on the back of the payout counter opens when the switch roller falls in a cam notch, and at payout counter reset the roller is NOT in a notch.    If the payout counter is not stepping up, the safety motor doesn't reset and the game shuts down when the timeout period is reached.


if ya compare the microswitch roller cam to the ratchet teeth, the safety motor resets about every 5 steps of the payout counter.  On an electrically stepped five coin multiplier game with units stepping the payout counter less often than coins eject, that equates to a safety motor reset every 25 coins ejected when five coins are played, so the timeout needs to be longer than it takes 25 coins to shoot out.