Help with identifying this converted Bally game? History of the machine and manufacturer DAT?

[KaPH33n]

There's not much to go off of. I know it's a nickel game. It takes 3 coins and has 3 horizontal paylines. It says "DAT CONVERSIONS INC." on it in a couple places. It also says ADVANCE GRAPHICS, which I'm guessing is the artist? I couldn't find anything on google with this info?




It's also relatively lightweight but I don't think it's a toy slot machine. It is appears to be commercially operable.

[mvco]

Looks like it started it's life as a Bally 831 model.

[Sunrise Side]

Very nice!

[KaPH33n]

Looks like it started it's life as a Bally 831 model.

Interesting! I got it in a lot with another IGT machine. I will have to start tearing it apart and looking for ancestry. Hopefully it’s fully working. I don’t hate the art or design but I do wish it was original now. I doubt I will go through the trouble of deconversion.

[KaPH33n]

Here's a couple more pics I took today.






I guess it was a Bally originally! I am having some issues with it now where it seems to be paying out every time I play 3 coins? I need to fill the hopper and make sure it's not just caught up paying out old credits? I noticed during the payout if I insert another coin it stops. Also when playing only 1 coin it does payout sometimes but not every time. I am not sure if it paid out every single time with 3 coins but it seemed like it.


I think the next step is to fill the hopper and let it get through the payout.


I wonder if there's a way to figure out what this game was originally? Are the reels different for machines or are mine not original? I notice it has bar and watermelons. I'm guessing it has 7s also, but I don't remember if they were there or not.

[wolftalk]

the 742A-261 was a "triple bar" machine for Barney's Club casino.  The original reel strips had bars, 2-bar, 3-bar, plums, bells, oranges, etc.


there may be P-484-xxx numbers stamped on the slotted reel discs.  For the -261, the xxx would be 642, 668, 669


the payout counter disc would have M-645-130 on it


what's actually in that cabinet tho ... could be anything, and it's also possible the serial/model number plate didn't belong to that cabinet either.


got more pictures of the insides and the reel wipers?

[KaPH33n]

Wow great history!  I am currently located in northern Cali so it doesn’t seem too far fetched this came from Barney’s. My other slot came all the way from a harrah’s in Louisiana?


I will try to research these more? So are you saying the game originally was only released at Barneys? I wonder at what point it made the conversion? Before or after going to home use?


I’m away from the machine tonight. I will try to take more pics this weekend.

[wolftalk]

the game originally went to Barney's.  All the ways it differed from the other few hundred variations of the 742A machine is a little harder to tell without having the schematic for that exact game ... which oddly enough, I have.


the typical differences between the models were things like jackpot bells, tower lights, reel strip symbols, payback percentage (frequency of each symbol) the slotted reel discs which need to match the reel strips, the payout counter disc to change the pay table, and the glass if payout changes were made.


I don't think bally made a model number if the customer just wanted their own belly glass.


once bally took the machine off the floor, it would have been traded in or sold to a wholesaler.  In your case, it eventually wound up at a company what recycled machines into new machines.  At that point, anything could have happened.  A large scale refurb company may have replaced reel wipers, contact plates, payout counter discs, reel strips and metal index discs.


a simpler approach if you have a lot of the same machine to convert is to change the reel strips and rewire the wiper contact plates, but keep everything else the same.  On your machine, they would have changed some reel tape  symbols to blanks.


if you're interested, I'll clean up and make available for the free download scans of the info on the original game, then you can compare to what you have to see what changes were made.

[KaPH33n]

if you're interested, I'll clean up and make available for the free download scans of the info on the original game, then you can compare to what you have to see what changes were made.

Yes, I would be interested in schematics for the game.


Here are some more pictures of the inside of the machines. I noticed that the reels are definitely replaced and I couldn't find the serial numbers you mentioned above. I couldn't see any plums or other symbols? I did find the 7 on the reels. So as far as I have seen there's bars, watermelons, and 7s.

[KaPH33n]

Separate to the identification and history of the machine... I would also like to get it operating/fully functional. It turns on and lets you coin up and play right now, but I feel like the payment is not right? I filled the hopper and let it finish a payout for three coins but it seems to always pay out? or most times?


with 1 coin played it doesn't pay out every time. It seems to track the reels correctly and it does pay out the correct 20 coins for 3 bars on the 1st payline. However, it seemed odd to me that it was paying this 20x win more than once in 20 pulls. I couldn't get rid of a handful of nickels, it kept paying me out. It was the correct 20 coins every time, but the frequency was off? I never did hit 3 watermelons or 7s with 1 coin.


Another issue is with 2 or 3 coins played it seems to jackpot every time? I am not sure but it looks like it is paying out $10 in nickels? I'm not sure why? I suppose It has something to do with the reels and wipers? I'm not very well versed in electromechanical repair but I am willing to try/learn. Hopefully it's something simple to fix? I don't think a slot is very fun when it's so loose that it's malfunctioning. Kind of takes away the joy of the win when it's incorrectly paying out too.


Ultimately I am not unhappy with the machine, even though it is a conversion. Do you guys think the fact that it has been converted hurts its value? Any idea of an appraisal of its value based on current condition as it sits, as well as if I am able to get it fully working? I do really like the kachunk-a-chunk of the lever arm. It's way more satisfying than my other slots.

[DavidLee]

Nice machine, I wouldn’t try to convert it back as it is unique.
On a jackpot only machine the bars will come up more frequently of course.
Plus you have 3 lines to line up on. It might seem to pay a lot, but over time it will gladly take you money.
Now, the reel disc could of be tampered with as to have the slot index arm fall into a BAR slot easier.
Although highly unlikely, but when machines are privately owned anything is possible.

The machine looks to need a good cleaning mainly on the contacts.
Best to clean one section of one component at a time.
This method will save a lot of time in the long run.

Start with the reels, clean the 3 wiper boards contacts and contact receivers.
Your photo of the wiper boards show lots of build-up on the receiver rivets.
This will definitely cause a problem with payouts.

And thank you for posting photos, this also saves a lot of time and questioning.

[DavidLee]

Photo of a machine with the similar payout.
Bars melons and sevens.

[KaPH33n]

Thanks for posting the last image DavidLee! I wonder if my game is a mish mash of parts? Possibly from that game, Harold's Club? Possibly someone bought up a ton of dead/non-working machines and did conversions because of broken/missing glass?


I will clean up the contacts on the reels and see if that improves the payout flaws? I know it's electromechanical but it has some kind of logic going on? It has the ability to know some state, like if there's 1, 2, or 3 coins entered. It knows how to count coins, because I verified it gives at 20 coin payout with 3 bars on payline 1. So I don't think it's completely gone, probably just a tweak and a tune up to get her going.


I also need to figure out how to access the light bulbs in the front door because the middle one is burnt out.

[wolftalk]

if the 261 and I'd guess 260 numbers on the reel wiper contact plates were put there by Bally, those were used on a couple "3 bar any" versions of the 742A.


on all machines I have info for that used the 261 contact plate, they actually used 259, 260, 261 for reels 1-3 and there's no guarantee the wiring of the rivets is how bally originally did it.  I don't have the wiring documentation for the 259-261 contact plates.


your reel tapes, if they are original bally, may have come from a 742A-13 Mint Special, but the only strip that had two blanks before a BAR went on reel 3.


there's some later strips with the same mix of symbols - BA, ME, 7, BL (blank) in different arrangements.


in any case, the machine was assembled from parts of various games or new/surplus parts and the only way to really resolve payout issues - assuming the reel wipers aren't bridging rivets due to misalignment - is to reproduce the docs or at least trace the wiring for a given payout thru the reels to the payout counter. 

there's not a lot of people crazy like me to find documenting the entire thing interesting, but to get an idea of how bally did it for the original 742A-261 - which the only part you have may be the serial number plate :-) - I put the docs on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/


it's possible mvco's suggestion of an 831 is closer to how the game is actually wired/works. 


suggest next step is to list the reel strip symbols in order for each reel and I'll see if they match a bally game, and that may get you a closer schematic to see how bally wired a 3-line-pay game.


a big question is how did they keep track of the number of coins played.  In most bally machines, there'd be a coin stepper unit, typically in the upper compartment.  You have anything in the top or got more pictures with the hopper unit and reel unit pulled out?


how close to the bay area are you?  I'm on the peninsula.  If you can't get it going, I'd be interesting in looking at it.

[KaPH33n]

your reel tapes, if they are original bally, may have come from a 742A-13 Mint Special, but the only strip that had two blanks before a BAR went on reel 3.

there's some later strips with the same mix of symbols - BA, ME, 7, BL (blank) in different arrangements.

I am guessing if the strips are original bally, then they aren't necessarily in order or from a specific game. I noticed 2 of the reel plates have the 261 number, which I assume is incorrect? You were saying you expected 259, 260, 261?

in any case, the machine was assembled from parts of various games or new/surplus parts and the only way to really resolve payout issues - assuming the reel wipers aren't bridging rivets due to misalignment - is to reproduce the docs or at least trace the wiring for a given payout thru the reels to the payout counter. 

I'm just going to assume that the person who did the conversion kind of knew what they were doing and how to work on these machines. I'm going to assume the wiring and payouts were set up at one time correctly but have fallen out over time. The contacts being dirty and not registering could be one factor, I will definitely give that a go as it's an easy fix if so.

there's not a lot of people crazy like me to find documenting the entire thing interesting, but to get an idea of how bally did it for the original 742A-261 - which the only part you have may be the serial number plate :-) - I put the docs on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

thanks I am going through the files and finding stuff now!

suggest next step is to list the reel strip symbols in order for each reel and I'll see if they match a bally game, and that may get you a closer schematic to see how bally wired a 3-line-pay game.


a big question is how did they keep track of the number of coins played.  In most bally machines, there'd be a coin stepper unit, typically in the upper compartment.  You have anything in the top or got more pictures with the hopper unit and reel unit pulled out?

will check and report back

how close to the bay area are you?  I'm on the peninsula.  If you can't get it going, I'd be interesting in looking at it.

I'm currently moving out of my place in SF to north of Sacramento. The machine is up north right now... I could drive it down to the peninsula relatively easily though. However, I'm still having fun dissecting the machine and learning about it. Once I get to a frustration point where I don't know what I'm doing or how to proceed I will definitely take you up on that offer.

[DavidLee]

On the top glass at the bottom middle is the name of the conversion company.


One way to realize a coin step up unit, is by the lights.
With additional coins the corresponding lights should light up.
So if the machine is working enough to accept coins watch the reel lines and the top box.
Also with each coin it maybe possible the hear the step up unit advance.


Assuming all or some of the lights are working.

[KaPH33n]

On the top glass at the bottom middle is the name of the conversion company.


One way to realize a coin step up unit, is by the lights.
With additional coins the corresponding lights should should light up.
So if the machine is working enough to accept coins watch the reel lines and the top box.
Also with each coin it maybe possible the hear the step up unit advance.


Assuming all or some of the lights are working.

Yes, the conversion company is called DAT Conversions Inc., but I didn't find anything with that name. There are some lights inside the next next to each payline, and they do light up based on the number of coins entered.

[DavidLee]

Great,
Here is a link to a video of a typical coin in step up unit.
The best view is the first portion of the video.


https://youtu.be/tFzVjGmQcdE

[wolftalk]

does the top glass light up?


since the cabinet was probably a 742A, that top part is not original.  If the supports are hollow and they ran wires up thru them, then a standard line unit could be in the top, along with extra relays typical on a 3 line pay game.


what I was trying to say on the reel wiper boards in they don't belong to a 742-261, and they don't belong in that arrangement in any machine I have info on. 

It really doesn't matter tho as the conversion company can use any board with the needed number of rivets and wire them any way they please. 

The implication is the entire reel mech could be rebuilt however they wanted, which isn't ideal as that means the wire colors won't necessarily conform to the bally conventions (e.g. wire 90 is the feed for line 1, 91 for line 2, and 93 for line 3), which will make life harder.

note also the sealed omron relay next to reel 3.  The 831 has the typical KK style relay there for a melon jackpot, so mvco is still in the lead on what this machine is closest to.


there's schems for some 831's on the same web site, but none of those have the limited number of reel strip symbols.  I'm pretty sure I have 831 schems for machines with just the symbols on this game, but need to figure out which model(s) they are.

[KaPH33n]

does the top glass light up?


since the cabinet was probably a 742A, that top part is not original.  If the supports are hollow and they ran wires up thru them, then a standard line unit could be in the top, along with extra relays typical on a 3 line pay game.


what I was trying to say on the reel wiper boards in they don't belong to a 742-261, and they don't belong in that arrangement in any machine I have info on. 

It really doesn't matter tho as the conversion company can use any board with the needed number of rivets and wire them any way they please. 

The implication is the entire reel mech could be rebuilt however they wanted, which isn't ideal as that means the wire colors won't necessarily conform to the bally conventions (e.g. wire 90 is the feed for line 1, 91 for line 2, and 93 for line 3), which will make life harder.

note also the sealed omron relay next to reel 3.  The 831 has the typical KK style relay there for a melon jackpot, so mvco is still in the lead on what this machine is closest to.


there's schems for some 831's on the same web site, but none of those have the limited number of reel strip symbols.  I'm pretty sure I have 831 schems for machines with just the symbols on this game, but need to figure out which model(s) they are.

The top glass does have 3 working bulbs in there that are controlled by the number of coins played. The payouts for 777 jackpot will light up as you enter coins.


I am very familiar with people changing wire colors due to just using whatever they have around. The worst is when everything gets changed to the same color!


I will go through and try to catalog the reels. Hopefully we can figure out if they are original bally or not and/or what game they came from? This is getting interesting and will probably actually help me in my other Bally project. I recognized that bingo.cdyn.com address because I'm trying to restore a 1977 Bally High Flyer Bingo Pinball as well. there's a separate thread about that project in the Pinball area. I think I may have one or possibly two too many projects. 


At least my video poker machine is fully working now tip to tail. That was the first newlifegames project I started around November 2019.