Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.

[SolidSilver]

MUCH head scratching    cannot find specs on the W88X-12 relay anymore, but one (probably the most common) manufacturer titles it a “latching” relay. EM latching relays are used either to cut the heat-producing current to the relay coil over long actuation periods, or for logic reasons to permit one signal to actuate it, and another separate signal to de-actuate it.

Since your photo only shows a single coil, if it truly is a latcher it is of the “alternating” type, in which a pulse actuates the relay and mechanically locks it, and the next pulse to the same coil unlocks it. Think of a Push-ON/Push-OFF switch.

1: Please examine the mechanism of the W88X-12 relay: is there any type of mechanical latch built in, that would keep the contacts “made” with one pulse, and drop them out with the next?

From your diagram, it seems the purpose of this relay is to “load” the capacitor across the sealed relay’s coil; not in a manner to suppress arcing, but so as to keep the sealed relay actuated for a short time after it is switched off. The cap acts like a small local rechargeable battery. I can’t at this point imagine why that would be needed, but so much is unclear yet…

It’s not yet clear which side of the two relay’s coils are the “switched” side, and which the “common/ground” side. Note that the lower of the two “from up there” wires on your drawing goes to both solenoid coils. That implies it is the common/ground line; or, that both solenoids are switched on at the same time by the same “upstairs” relay; this seem unlikely...

So, 2: One of the coil pins of the W88X-12 relay is not shown connected. Can you trace it? Does it go to any pin on the sealed relay, or to another wire going “upstairs?

I really want to keep the wire-tracing to a minimum, and concentrate on examining specific components: relays, caps, and resistors. But these two questions should (I hate that word… ) clarify the relevant logic.

[shortrackskater]

1. I don't see any mechanical latch on that relay. 

2. I think the only way to show this is to complete my schematic. The open relay doesn't have pin numbers that I can see. The coil pins are at the very bottom I assume? Also I failed to show the tabs in the back! My fault.  The tabs in the back have wires soldered to them that originate from the front. I think I need to completely redo this.
Hang on... a bit!

[SolidSilver]

OK, Shorty, no worries. Apparently that open relay is not a latcher, and therefore applies the capacitor/resistor circuit to the hopper-drive relay according to "logic." No need at this point to tortuously trace more wiring. It is highly unlikely that anything is wire wrong, and understanding more of the logic may be unnecessary.
The problem(s) you are encountering are much more likely to be a component (capacitor, resistor, diode) that is bad, or a compromised pair of relay contacts, or a relay coil, or a crimped wire connecter. Let's check that stuff first, rather than have you tear your hair out with a conductivity meter.

1. Are there any other capacitors, resistors, or diodes anywhere between the reel jackpot contacts and the hopper? If so, check 'em out, and describe them.

2. Check and clean every relay contact one-at-at-time while attempting to pay off a jackpot. (You could just clean 'em all up at once, but if that works, it would be nice to know which one was bad) Note that contacts can stick actuated, and never return to de-actuated. Make sure they flip back-and-forth; see #3 below.

3. Check all the relay coils: you can resistance check them, but sometimes the fact that they are in a circuit will give weird readings. They are undoubtedly all 24vdc, so you can tap 24vdc from the power supply and actually actuate them and watch/hear them click.

4. Are there any crimped wire connections involved? If so, re-crimp the bejabbers out of them: loosened wire crimps are a prime source of intermittent problems.

5. If all is groovy, can you pull out those 3 Durant counters and swap them around, to see if one of them is geschnutz?
If that's not practical, you may be able to unplug the wires from a specific output contact and plug it into another: if all suddenly works, the result would be a payoff, but just the wrong number of coins.

6. Have another glass of wine.

[shortrackskater]

Cleaning  Starting with the board with the two relays. Well we know the sealed one works.
(I did some before but I'll repeat. I bought a burnisher thingy)

[shortrackskater]

Delays delays!
Cleaned the two relays on small board. Reconnected everything and forced a three watermelon win.
Nothing from hopper!
Starting on upper board ... again. I say again because I did this before but without the burnisher I got. I just used contact cleaner and ran a piece of clean business card through each contact, I also checked for continuity after. BUT... maybe it's a bad relay?
Backtracking to the lower board. There IS a diode. I'll check that out right now...

[Shaggy]

So why does SS call you shorty? Inquiring minds want to know???

[shortrackskater]

So why does SS call you shorty? Inquiring minds want to know???

For "SHORT track skater" Sad to say, my former sport! I haven't been on the ice in nearly a year now.
But I'm still skating like a maniac on my super fast speed inline skates. 

[Shaggy]

Thank goodness, I thought maybe TMZ had pics on you from Hollywood.           

[Shaggy]

As a P.S. I haven't been on the the ice since my last Rum and Coke.   

[shortrackskater]

Thank goodness, I thought maybe TMZ had pics on you from Hollywood.           

Hmmm I could sue!!! Get $$$ like Hulk Hogan 

[rokgpsman]

Did you used to skate out on the highway??   

Maybe this is what they mean when they sing "Ventura Highway,,, in the Sunshine..."

Looks like it would be important to apply lots of sunscreen.

[Shaggy]

According  to reports....... his "shortcomings" told the truth.   

[shortrackskater]

Ahhhh! OMG! That's awful...
He does have good form though! 
But I'm not looking at the rest! 

[Shaggy]

I think it's time to get back on topic.. I'm sorry. But you're always good for a laugh in the evening.   


Yes!  - "shorty" 

[shortrackskater]

1. Are there any other capacitors, resistors, or diodes anywhere between the reel jackpot contacts and the hopper? If so, check 'em out, and describe them.
Well the contacts on the mechanism connect to the plug in the back, which (I think) makes contact with the top board where the counters are.
Ok take a deep breath. There's 17 diodes on the backside of the upper board (the counter board), along with one diode in the front, four big 33 ohm resistors, and two big caps - one cap looks like the 500mf on the other board. The other one looks larger think (it's in back) . I can't make out the value without removing the relays. LOTS of wires in the way.

2. Check and clean every relay contact one-at-at-time while attempting to pay off a jackpot. (You could just clean 'em all up at once, but if that works, it would be nice to know which one was bad) Note that contacts can stick actuated, and never return to de-actuated. Make sure they flip back-and-forth; see #3 below.
I've done the board on the side as written in my earlier post, before the skating stuff.
Cleaning those relays now... Sunday night.

3. Check all the relay coils: you can resistance check them, but sometimes the fact that they are in a circuit will give weird readings. They are undoubtedly all 24vdc, so you can tap 24vdc from the power supply and actually actuate them and watch/hear them click.
This will be difficult for me but I will try... just not sure where to put the 24v on each one. I should have taken more that three electronics classes back in the day...

4. Are there any crimped wire connections involved? If so, re-crimp the bejabbers out of them: loosened wire crimps are a prime source of intermittent problems.
Nope! Checked solder joints too...

5. If all is groovy, can you pull out those 3 Durant counters and swap them around, to see if one of them is geschnutz?
If that's not practical, you may be able to unplug the wires from a specific output contact and plug it into another: if all suddenly works, the result would be a payoff, but just the wrong number of coins.


6. Have another glass of wine.
In progress...

[SolidSilver]

Shaggy, the official reason is the same as your reference to me as SS: Shorty is simply easier on my old fingers than shortrackskater.

The real reason, however, is a Hollywood legend involving a wild Beverly Hills party given by a senior Sony executive, with a pool filled with whipped cream, a Romanian country-western band, four Dobermans in water wings, and a 6-foot 9-inch Hawaiian stripper named Mindy Kmonawannalaya. Mindy, utterly taken by our studly athlete, made a pass at him. Mark, already busy with a Singapore Airlines stewardess, replied.....

Aah, it’s Mark’s legend; I’ll let him tell it. 

[shortrackskater]

The real reason, however, is a Hollywood legend involving a wild Beverly Hills party given by a senior Sony executive, with a pool filled with whipped cream, a Romanian country-western band, four Dobermans in water wings, and a 6-foot 9-inch Hawaiian stripper named Mindy Kmonawannalaya. Mindy, utterly taken by our studly athlete, made a pass at him. Mark, already busy with a Singapore Airlines stewardess, replied.....

"Kmonawannalaya...you're a beautiful 'plus size'  island women, but you might crush me!"

Ok back to the topic at hand! I've answered some questions Jim - they're above in reply 74 in RED.

I noticed something with one relay on the upper board. When I depress it, the main electromagnetic contact has a noticeable gap in it. I can stick my burnisher right through it but not on the other relay. I don't see any way to adjust it other than bend each of the three contacts. I added a picture but it's not easy to see the gap.
Ideas?

[Shaggy]

You guy's are killin' me. I got more information (and imagination ) in the last few responses than anyone ever should. Mindy Kmonawannalaya  is the Amazon of the Islands. No wonder he wanted a fly girl. I spent 20+ years in a C/W band and cannot even imagine the Romanian accent. Bood Scood Boogie. I vant....etc. I think I'm going to quit for the night and think or sleep on this. Please get this machine fixed as this is giving me a headache. I've never been to Hawaii, that must be cool!

[SolidSilver]

17 diodes??  OK, unless there is some weird logic going on that I do not understand, I'd guess they are using diodes for contact arc suppression; which implies those fat caps are for time delay. Not very useful information right now, but something to remember.

That open-frame relay you show with the contact gap: that's just the kind of thing we are looking for. Squinting at the picture, it looks like the lower stationary pad is thinner that the upper one, and the bottom surface of the moving contact is flat or pitted, rather than rounded like the top surface; ie. burned off contacts. Can you verify with your continuity checker that that contact pair does not always connect? (NOTE: it may be weak, causing an intermittent problem such as you are seeing)

Secondly, is the upper pair (relaxed mode) contact used? If not used, you can try bending the armature downward slightly to reduce that gap, as losing the upper contact would make no difference.

For testing, after grinding/burnishing the surfaces, you can try inserting a very thin sheet of metal (copper or aluminum foil) to take up the gap temporarily. BUT, there's a good chance of an unused contact pair on that relay, that you can switch the wires over to. Can you see if.....?

[shortrackskater]

I carefully bent the lower tabs down... so the gap would reduce at the armature to coil, and put it all back in. I set up a three melon pay and it DID spit three coins from the hopper... and that was it. The next coin in did reset the counters too.
I still suspect that relay, I think. I thought reducing the gap might work but it's still a larger gap than the other relay. I think I need to apply the 24 volts to see if it at least tries. I need 24v! I'll dig through my box-o-adapters tonight. If it does appear alive, then I can try more tweaking or adding a piece of copper (or a slab of gold from my stash!) and see if that does it. There seems just to be resistance when I press the top - like the whole thing is warped somewhat.
There is one contact used at the "relaxed mode" contacts.
 
I'm going to call it a night here in the garage and head inside to play with my NEW C Crane "skywave" travel radio that I just paid a small fortune for!