Bally Sir Prize - Just Picked up!

[markalmonduk]

Hi
Before my journey on a restoration and repair of this new purchase, Bally Sir Prize, I'd thought I'll share the photos to begin with. Having only worked with Full mechanical slots for 40 years, this is the first ever EM machine I've specifically bought to learn how it works and repair. Lets hope its fun... and I don't electrocute myself in the process!!!!

[jimliner]

Nice looking machine. 

[wolftalk]

hopper says it's model 783A-1.  If so, the slotted reel index disc on reel 1 should have either 484-655 or something like SRP-2-1-X stamped on it.

Did you get a schematic and other paperwork with it?  I don't have anything except maybe the reel tape and index disc definitions, which are rarely needed.

if you're bored and want to email highest possible resolution pictures to slotpics@cdyn.com (or stick them on a cloud drive someplace to fetching), I'll add them to the https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ site.  Send as many pics/video as ya like.  Ideal pics show the entire side of the units/openings so people can see where the parts are ... and pics of the hold-n-draw pieces would be especially appreciated.

p.s. did you buy the bally 200 manual off ebay.uk?  I've been looking for one to scan and make available for free download.

[markalmonduk]

Hi
Thanks for info. I'll get some photos sent over asap. I did get a schematic with the machine but its very large so will try and get a friend to scan it and send to your email.
I'll be starting work on this tonight so will document what I'm doing with photos and video, and no doubt asking lots of question!!!!

[wolftalk]

I did get a schematic with the machine but it's very large so will try and get a friend to scan it and send to your email.

great, thanks!

if possible, please scan at 300dpi (600dpi is better) and in color and save in lossless format like tiff or png.    That makes it a lot quicker to clean up.

unfortunately, a 600dpi scan in color is a 100-200+MB file, so contact me at the email and I'll arrange for a cloud drive spot to copy it to (onedrive, google drive, etc.).

if he's scanning in chunks on a flatbed scanner, please overlap the area in the scans around 1/3 so automated stitching software can reassemble into one image.  Alignment/rotation of the chunks don't matter, just the overlap.

if scanning doesn't work out, a bunch of overlapping pictures at highest possible resolution will work ... try and keep camera parallel to paper as much as possible to minimize distortion.

[shortrackskater]

Is this an overflow try? I've never seen this in a Bally.

[Pinballwizard55]

Yes that was  what was used as an overflow in the earlier bally e.m.s. they cut the back wall off of the hopper bucket and  whatever fell into the box was your profit.

[DavidLee]

Yes, coins would spill out or the hopper into to metal box.
Use to see the coin crew in Vegas emptying machines early in the morning.

[markalmonduk]

Have uploaded a video tour of the inside, hopefully you can give some help.
The machine works and pays. Hold buttons do not function? I've just purchased at vast expense the Owners Pictorial Guide manual, waiting for delivery, hoping this will help me.
My background is repair/restore mechanical slots for 40 years, I've repaired Gottlieb EM Pinball machines, and Rockola EM Jukeboxes so have an understanding (trial & error!!!!) of cams, motors, solenoids etc...

1st venture into a Bally and EM Slots... the journey begins.

Link to video

[63mini]

markalmonduk,

  Let's start with this.

 1. The second lower switch would be for a coin drop meter. 
 2. The orange and yellow/red wire would go to the coin lockout behind the coin acceptor.
 3. There should be two more wires in that are in that area for the coin divertor. One would be orange and the other maybe grey/blue?

 I'll attach some photo of a door.  While it's not the same game as yours you will at least see the coin handling that is missing from yours.

[wolftalk]

the schematic will confirm some stuff and also let you know what wasn't originally on the game.

on your door the cut solid blue wire is usually wire 20 - the 6VAC power wire.  You'd want to see where it's going - maybe the hold lamps? - and if there's another blue wire nearby

wires of different colors connected together - unless one is a short jumper wire - is a hack by someone

there will be a lot of things in there not on the schematic unless you have a modified schem.  One thing you have to determine is whether removing the extra bits makes the game play match what it says on the glass.  You may have the original art on much of the glass covered with stickers/tape.  If you remove the glass, you can look at the back side and see if the original artwork is there or if it's been scraped off.   

In general, any wire harness not tied with string is probably added, as well as the extra sockets.  Typical uses are remote control, remote monitoring or adding meters.

someone got the bally 200 manual that was on ebay.uk (the red one - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125768643246).  If someone else has one or wants to ask the seller if they can connect them to the buyer, that manual will have the exploded parts diagram of what was originally in the machine.

is 63mini's pics a 783 or some other machine?  Some of the UK games had support for different coins/tokens so the coin handling was a little more complicated.  The microswitch with the 3 wires attached and the coin lockout coil are almost certainly what he said tho.

[mark the spark]

mark quick look at the video the homemade cam in the bottom half could be your hold control unit as its not mounted on the front of the reel mech
yes just had another watch i reckon that is a hold cam its supposed to be random hence why it turns every time yuou pull the handle it should be tied in with the draw relay i have never yet found any schematic that covers this so its a matter of chasing wires through, the cam is random but with your meter you should be able to move the cam into the correct position it should pull the relay in on that board
the multiple play unit is just that i have a machine that gives to pulls for 1 coin when the coin is inserted the relay releases but it is reset with a mechanical action of the handle pull it takes 2 pulls to reset it

[markalmonduk]

Thanks to MarktheSpark, Wolftalk and 63mini for your help. I'm slowly going thru everything and looking forward to receiving the Bally book next week. I've filmed another video. I bought two Bally machines that look identical. I'm hoping to keep the new one with the "BALLY" glass front. Hopefully I can use parts to make up a single good machine..WITH working Hold button (fingers crossed). If you watch the video, do you think someone has swapped the doors as the "Bally" front machine appears to have all the parts for Sir Prize inside??
Video:
https://youtu.be/-0lK2AymFFM

[wolftalk]

they are both sir prize machines.  The second one looks more factory, and the first more modified ... maybe.  There were variations on the machines for customers - either local legal requirements or just ways to differentiate from other locations trying to attract the same customers.

the hold pieces are on the reel mech in front of the reel wiper boards mounted on top of the metal shelf the reel wiper arms move in.  I don't have that bally 200 manual, but the 2400 manual has the diagrams for the "old style" hold and draw used on the 783 on pages 94-95.

the manual is in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/

the hold buttons are not always active ... certainly not after a win.  There may be other game dependent rules or hacks to change when they work.  The schematic is needed now, but until one shows up, the 816 also used the old style hold-n-draw and that schem is on the https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ dumping ground.

on the 816, you could hold on after any non-paying spin.

the plug in your bottom compartment may be an adjust plug to configure the 1 or 2 pulls per coin.

the belly glass on your second machine is a generic bally glass.  The game may or may not have come with that.  Not uncommon for the original glass to get broken or was specific to a location and got replaced with a generic.

 

[mark the spark]

you might have to work backwards here i findn that easier sometimes
your hold coils are under the reel mech and also the cancel coil which are activated by door buttons the actual hold is a mechanical latch if you look above the coils or move the coil plunger by hand you will see them operate sometimes these get stiff and when you do get a hold they wont work
trace you wires but im sure that board in with the hopper is a random hold you will need to chase these through to see where they go (maybe to that socket what yhou have a plug for)
out of curiosity where in england are you

[markalmonduk]

I'm based in Hertfordshire in UK.

Another day on the Bally and another short video. I decided to swap the doors between the Bally (belly glass) and the Sir Prize (belly glass) as the Bally had the coin mech in place (and I prefer the look of Bally to the Sir Prize!!).
If you watch video you'll see the results. As I'm trying to get HOLD to work, does it need to be a multiplay game? If so, what tells the Handle to allow it to be pulled twice? I thought if I played 2 coins it would trigger something but it does not. Maybe you have 2 different coins to play, as example: a 5c one play, 10c two plays? I'm going to try and chase the wires to the light that shows 2nd Game on the door. I've explained more in video.

video link:
https://youtu.be/U1ozy-WwvHs

[wolftalk]

I woulda suggested getting the second machine working as it looks like it's factory.

the problem with the first game is you'll have to reverse-engineer what the modifications are doing.  A common modification was to limit when the hold function worked so it couldn't be used after every losing spin.

I do have a schematic for a 766 Jolly Tavener posted on the web site, and it did support token and coin play using two different switches.  Sir Prize is likely very similar, but we'll find out once the schematic has been obtained.   You'll have to look at the coin mech and the surrounding area to see if there's a way for it to distinguish between a coin and token.  I'd expect the tokens went into the hopper and the coins went into the bin ... the idea being the game never paid out cash, it just paid tokens and winning just let you play longer ... or the location bought the tokens back to pay you off.

if a token was played, the token relay powered and you got one handle pull.  If a coin was played, the multiple step unit was stepped up and that gave you two handle pulls.  The multiple step up controlled the lighting of the 1st and 2nd game lights, the insert coin light, etc.

whether a token or coin was played, the game would reject further coins back to the tray until the appropriate number of spins had been used.  Manually triggering the coin/token switches inside the door usually does nothing when the game doesn't want to accept coins.

for the hold stuff ... you have a draw relay on the right side of the reel mech.  Typically, that relay needs to be powered for the hold buttons to work.

on an 802, the draw relay will power if you didn't hold reels on the previous spin AND you didn't win on the previous spin.

it's looking like a sir prize combines the features of a 766 and an 802.

if you can see the hold relay after a spin, look to see if it's powered and that'll determine the next step.  If you can't see the relay, you can attach a voltmeter to the two relay coil lugs and see if you get 50VAC. Use alligator clip jumpers if necessary to attach the coil lugs to the meter probes.

[wolftalk]

mark sent documents scans to me and preliminary versions are available in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/783-A1/

readable, but they'll be cleaned up over the next few days and replaced with png files.

the w-1046-486.jpg file is the schematic, and it's for a sir prize with 2/2d and 1 play/token and had a coin changer (the game had an attachment that allowed you stuff in different coins and it spat out the appropriate number of tokens).    All the machines I've seen pictures of with changers had a separate coin slot(s) someplace, so the main coin mech on the door just took the tokens or the tokens and 2d coins.

one the 783-A1, the rule for powering the draw relay is the same as the 802.  Previous spin must not be a winner or have held reels.

[markalmonduk]

Tried both mechs in the Bally cabinet. Some good results, 2 plays for 1 coin works, Holds.. not working! Will begin tracing wires from schematic this week. Have a video on progress so far, any advice appreciated.
Video
https://youtu.be/nQjqLzHIAhk

[wolftalk]

as you found, you have to push the buttons on the front to hold the reels.

in a factory game, the buttons don't work if your previous spin was a winner or you held reel(s).

your cabinet is modified, so sticking your second reel mech which appears more factory may not work correctly as they apparently made changes to control the cam unit.

I'd guess the cam unit is randomizing when hold is available.  Only way to tell is trace the wires from the switches on the cam unit and see where they go.

it'd be more straightforward to get the complete second game (with the second cabinet) you had working assuming it matches the schematic.  Then you can figure out the first game.

if you'd prefer to work with the first cabinet, I'd just use the reel mech that cam with it and figure out what the changes were.  Putting the second mech in the first cabinet almost guarantees something won't work right.

can you see or get your camera to see the draw relay when the reels are in the cabinet?