Recent auction aquisition 891-18

[SeaBiscuit]

Just picked up my second Bally 891. The first being a standard 891, credit only, with no payout. Unfortunately, the 4 reel assembly is from a 847 which makes things a bit strange. The credit only 891 was dead on arrival, but currently operates at about 90 percent.  Cherries won't pay, but I've been too busy to dig into the issue.

The "new" 891-18 was pretty filthy, and was a lights-only 230lb lamp, but as of today, it's playing, and paying, with some bugs still roaming around in there. Mainly, the hopper likes to spin along with the reels, and will stop when the reels lock out. I'm sure I can track it down, but any advice is appreciated.

The other thing I am looking for is the correct top glass, as the 891-18 glass was replaced with E2891 glass, which sort of functions, but, I would much prefer the original look of the earlier EM Supers. Any leads are appreciated!

[jimliner]

Congrats on the acquisition!   

  Sounds like you you have revived it from "lamp" status to functioning.   If the hopper mixer is the biggest problem your in good shape.  The hopper mixing was a feature I didn't understand why Bally added.  It's on the schematic and on purpose. 
Are both coin & credit systems working ?

      Jim

[SeaBiscuit]

Thank you for the reply Jim- that's good to know that the hopper mixing is intentional- although like yourself, it makes you wonder why? Seems like an awful lot of unnecessary churning. At least it saves me time trying to track down that "problem"

Yes on both coin and credit functionality, and the player activated push-button credit payout also works, allowing a player to cash out without an attendant. Kind of fun to see it toss out nickels while the credit meter winds down.

Still has quite a bit of cleanup, and lubrication ahead, but that's half the fun!
-Craig

[wolftalk]

given the frequent pays of the 891s, the hopper mixing does seem like overkill.

if you want to disable it, disconnect one side of the hopper mixer relay coil ... but if a double wire is attached to the coil lug, make sure the two wires stay connected together - especially if you disconnect orange wire 70 from the coil.
 

[jimliner]

SB,

I am not familiar with the -18. 

Is it the register reset keyed switch that runs (clears) credits down or the push button near the key switch?

Jim

[SeaBiscuit]

Thanks for the tip on disabling the hopper mix wolftalk. I temporarily insulated the coil contacts, and that did the trick. The racket must have been substantial with a row of 891's churning away. That annoyance clearly accounted for the fine metal dust inside the cabinet - years of nickels slowly churning away into powder.

jimliner, this 18 has a push button directly below the coin deposit, allowing the player to cash out their credit accumulation. Not sure if that was a casino mod, or if it shows in the schematic, which I am trying to locate. I'm flying blind on these Supers.

[wolftalk]

not sure what "temporarily insulated the coil contacts" means ... if you mean you disabled switches on the relay, is there only one with the plastic coated white (50) and white/blue (52-2) wires that you made permanently open?  If yes, that looks good per the schems I have.

the 891 schems on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ are all the ones I have ... I think.

the -18 customer was "puerto rico" ... dunno if that's a casino name or literally puerto rico.  The odds of finding the schematic for that specific game are very low unless whoever grabbed a bunch of docs from bally when they were cleaning house has them.  I think it was someone in southern california, but that was a lot of years ago and they may be long gone.

the differences in 891 models could be large:

1] ability to use a key switch to configure the game in coin pay or credit pay mode (891-1)
2] having a collect button to cash out credits (891-8 is credit pay only with a collect button cash out)
3] not having either coin pay or credit pay (891-14 is coin pay only)

if you only have a jackpot release key, then maybe the 891-8 will be close, but the -8 and -18 use different payout counter discs, so the pay table is different somehow.

[SeaBiscuit]

Yes, there is only one with the plastic coated white and white/blue wires (although it is a double stack leaf with two sets of contacts- see photo in last post). My "temporary insulation" was simply electrical tape to open the contacts, as opposed to disconnecting the coil. Giving me the option to quickly place the machine back into annoying mix-mode without resoldering. Or more aptly, my heirs the option to try and figure out what dad was doing with the piece of electrical tape, thereby removing it, to discover mix-mode.
 
Thanks for the link to the schematics- I'll check them out later tomorrow when I have some time. This game in particular has a collect button to cash out credits, much like the 891-8 is credit pay only with a collect button cash out).

It would be interesting to see the different payout tables.

[wolftalk]

Thanks for the link to the schematics- I'll check them out later tomorrow when I have some time. This game in particular has a collect button to cash out credits, much like the 891-8 is credit pay only with a collect button cash out).

It would be interesting to see the different payout tables.

looks like I phrased that badly.  Sometimes the payout counter disc itself is the same, but when it's wired differently it can either:
- get a different drawing number
- the drawing was amended to add notes for different games

in this case, the -8 drawing is w-923-198 while the other common one was w-923-177.  I don't have w-923-198, but the info on it usually be inferred from the schematic.

while the payouts for the symbol combinations may be the same, the overall payback percentage for the games may be different by using different reel tapes and index discs.  The 891 generally came in 66, 78, 82 and 88% payback configurations.

which one you have can sometimes be quickly seen looking at the codes stamped into the reel index discs.  If they didn't stamp something like p-684-30 but instead used an alphanumeric code like SL-TB-1, then a little more work is needed to cross reference the factory docs - or ya just have to calculate the percentage yourself from the reel tapes and payout info on the glass.

the w-923-177 was used on the 891-1, and the drawing is on the web site. 

comparing the schematics, it looks like the payouts are the same, but the wiring for 50 traces and above is different because of jackpot lockup.

games that pay credits - or are configured to pay credits - don't need to lockup for higher pays, while games that lockup may pay up to 200 coins and the rest is hand paid.

[DavidLee]

In regards to the first machine.
If the cherries don’t pay and everything else does.

I would suspect the circuit across the wiper boards
to the payout step unit is open.
Cherries usually red/white wire runs through the left beau-plug close to the first or second position.
Easy enough to trace as it is very accessible.

[essmeier]

The other thing I am looking for is the correct top glass, as the 891-18 glass was replaced with E2891 glass, which sort of functions, but, I would much prefer the original look of the earlier EM Supers.

I've got an 891-20 that had some glass issues.  I just scanned it, cleaned it up in Photoshop and made a new one.  I've been looking for years to try to find a better original, but they're just not out there.

Process is simple:
1. Print artwork on glossy photo paper
2. Get two pieces of 17" x 22" glass, .092" thick
3. Cut window (white area) out of the artwork to show the replay register.
4. Put the paper in between the two sheets of glass.
5. Seal edges with silicone.
6. Install.

The final result looks great. 

A reduced size sample is attached.  Full sized artwork is too large to post here; contact me if you'd like me to send it.

[DavidLee]

That looks great.

Post a photo of the glass when it is lighted from behind if possible.

I did a similar process to make reel tapes.

Then used the same artwork to creat a shop sign.

[essmeier]

Post a photo of the glass when it is lighted from behind if possible.

Here you go.

[jimliner]

Huge shout out and thanks to Essmeier.   I did contact him for the file.  He is very helpful.   Costs were reasonable and way below what I'd pay for an original.  The 891-1 it's going into sat in direct sun light every day for many years at the previous owners.   

Glossy print = $53.
2 panes of 17" x 22" 0.094 glass = $40.
Tube of clear silicone $10, didn't shop around.
For $103 it is money well spent.

Side by side photo it's hard to see fading and minor flaking.  Other is new glass in machine. 
Pics just don't do justice.  Going to bubble wrap and store original for now.