Bally Super Continental 891-1

[Pkunik]

Hello All, could use some help with a Super Continental 891-1. A friend has one that he tried to fix and messed up the reel assembly. I have years experience with old mechanical, EM, and some solid state pinballs, but this is my first time with a slot. He had partially taken apart the 4 reel mechanism to clean out the gunk and to clean the fingers of the wipers for each reel, located at the rear and on top of each reel. He brought the machine to me after pulling out his hair as to why it no longer does payouts correctly. I got all the manuals but could not locate a schematic which may have the info I am looking for. When he disassembled the unit he broke the cardinal rules and did all the wipers at the same time. After studying the unit I realized that those wipers are not the same. When I told him that he said really?  All the manuals I have give the same part # for each of the 4, but they are configured differently. There are 2 pairs of the same configuration and I need to know the correct location of each. These are a challenge to get adjusted correctly and also don't want to chance breaking something by trying all the different possible locations. 2 wipers have 3 connected fingers at it's top , the other 2 have 3 connected fingers on the bottom. Could someone who owns this machine look at theirs to see the right order of these?  For clarity I am facing the reels with the wipers in the rear reading them left to right. I have already tried a few combinations, but again the adjustment takes apt of time and finesse, and I really am afraid I will slip and break something. This info would be greatly appreciated. Thank you !

[Amechanic]

I did something simular a couple years back to a 4 reel game I picked up.. It didn't want to pay out, and I found that the first wiper had two worn out wiper contacts.. Never having to change one out before, I just counted the number of contacts on the wipers and found some replacements.. Once reassembled it didn't want to pay out?? Thats when I noticed the difference in the wipers as you have.. It might have 7 contacts but they are broke down into section groups. I didn't keep track of what came off what reel either, so to this day until I find the time that machine sits in the corner.. Mines a convesion to a Poker theme, but I'm hoping that someday I'll stumble onto another 4 reel EM.. I did have a Super Continental 891 about the same time, but I sold it before I could look it over.. I do know that there is a seller on EBay that has some schematics.. He asks you to message him with your model numbers to check his enventory before buying..This is his EBay listing..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BALLY-SLOT-MACHINE-Schematic-Wiring-Diagrams-64-80-Electro-Mechanical-/191281213834?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c893fb18a#ht_1447wt_1153
I did see a Bally Continental 847 too..
Good luck, and keep me posted if you find anything out..
Gary

[Pkunik]

Makes you wonder how many of these units are just sitting around not working with the owner stumped as to why?  There are actually only 8 combinations and so far I've done 2, so if worse comes to worse only 6 more to go...

Thank you for the reply and info on the prints. When I get it right will definitely post it!

[OldReno]

I am guessing the two outer reels have 1 type of wiper, and the two inner reels take the other.
This probably has something to do with the cherry paying L to R and R to L...?
However, you can re-adjust the wipers by simply putting the index arm into the Deepest cut, and then looking on the wiring side of the board to see where it hits.  IOW, it should not index on an unwired position, but should index on the first (or last however you view it) wired spot.  You can also do the same for the shallowest cuts.
I ALWAYS, when doing a teardown overhaul, would mark my wipers with a punch.  1 spot for #1 reel, 2 for 2 and etc.
Hope that helps a bit.
You can test the machine without putting all the wipers in, as it should be able to pay 1 cherry on 1st or 4th reel without needing the other wipers attached, just FYI.
Also, you might want to try the 3 wipers on top, on the 1st and 4th reels first off.

[Amechanic]

Thanks for the information. Makes me want to go dig out that 4 reel EM tonight that's been sitting in the corner collecting dust, but it will have to wait a little longer since I have too many projects going right now. I will print that information out a go stick it with my 4 reel poker machine.

Gary

[Pkunik]

Second time writing this, screen flashed and lost all I had written.  Or I'll have a double post!  Got the payouts at 95% correct. So now switch the outers in. That means moving all 4. Now I have this nagging thought, are the wipers correct but I just need to fine tune what I have now?  Only one way to find out, but if I move them and it gets worse I will be really bummed!  I agree on marking parts. With pinball I pretty much don't worry about it. Been doing it so long I just tear apart and put back together. If a little complex I shoot a few cell phone pics. With something like this I would have marked them. The guy who tore this apart is pretty good with this stuff, he just didn't realize the wipers were configured differently. He brought it to me as he just could not figure out what was wrong. The good thing is having never worked on one before I did nothing for 2 hours but studied how it worked, so after reading posts on how improper payouts generally were caused by a malfunctioning hopper I took it part way apart and cleaned it. Still had the problem and as he told me he only took apart the reel unit figured it had to be there. That left the wipers.   By all accounts they look the same, but looking closer.... Eureka.  It did bother me that the manuals I bought gave each wiper the same part number, when in fact they are different. From what I read 4 reel units were new to this series of slots, so I guess documentation was not high priority. Or maybe just the nature of slots. I have found this issue with low production run pinballs. Prints not done up as professionally on high production runs. Without high end computers back then manuals and such were probably expensive to draw up. Again, as not a slot person I don't want to show too much ignorance.

On a side note, and I don't want to hijack my own thread, but in payment for fixing this, my friend gave me a second slot that is totally dead. He said it worked fine until he barn stored it. How do you find, or where do you look for a model #?  Whereas the continental has it's name right on it and the model # written all over the guts this thing has nothing. It is a Bally 3 reel with MGM on the marque and the MGM logo on the reels. He called it an MGM. Internet search on pictures for Bally MGM slot only returned a million or so pictures, and none of them even close. It's not a big machine, and is an EM type unit.  Just didn't know where specifically a model might be posted. Needs a few parts (arm is busted of with a welded on handle, bottom backlit glass with MGM on it is cracked), but other than that cosmetically not in too bad of shape, good reels, etc etc. looks like a good winter project. It is a 5 way machine. Newer than the continental I believe, but not by much.

Thanks again for the input on wiper configuration. Will hopefully get it right tomorrow.

[Amechanic]

The Bally tag is usually on the lower right side near the door. If your able to post a picture or two we should be able to ID it. I have 3 Red glass MGM EM slot machines.  One is a 5 coin 5 line, its a model 955. A replacement handle will be easy to find, but to replace the cracked glass will be almost impossible. Franks Casino Glass in Vegas could have one, but it won't be cheap.

Gary

[Pkunik]

Well, I think I have the Continental about figured out and with a few more hours work should be good to go. I think I have the wiper config right, but have not played it enough to be certain. Will post the right positions when confident it's right. Had to fix a number of linkages on the reel unit. Almost there, had to buy some roll pins for one shaft tonight, will put in tomorrow and then I hope the spinning will be in the right timing. The guy I'm fixing this for had used a small screw for the shaft that drives the timing sequence. The reels were stopping way too soon so fixed a few messed up parts then set it up to the specs, all to no good. Could not get it right until it noticed the sloppy movement where he had put a screw in by the fan. I knew that was the problem then but didn't have a replacement pressure pin.  To test it I put in a soft metal piece I had just to try it out and that was the issue. Question: even with the reels spinning right, if I stopped playing the machine even for a few minutes the first time I'd start playing it again the reels would stop almost immediately after pulling the handle. They would move only one step. Next play they'd spin fine, and keep spinning fine until I again stopped for a few. The first spin all would only move one place on first pull. Then back to normal on additional pulls. Any ideas why?  The shafts and linkages have all been degreaser, as well as possible without disassembly. Thought it might still have some gunk in there that might need loosening up, but it is pretty clean. Not going to worry too much about it, but it is odd 

I did figure out the other machine. It is a Bally classic with the MGM theme. I guess a bit rare, but from what I read a pain to keep working and a pain to fix. Just figures my first experience with slots and I end up with 2 of the biggest pain in the butt to work on units, at least from what I read on the internet. Well, getting experience on the hardest to fix machines will make any future endeavors a piece of cake, right?  With the pneumatic shocks bad that hold up the door, it slammed down on the previous owner and that is what cracked the lower marquee. Probably going to be pricey and almost impossible to find a replacement. Same for the shocks. My brother works  in a machine shop, so if I can fine a ball that goes on the arm he could weld me up the screw onto the arm end to put the ball back on. That's right where it broke off. Worse comes to worse I'll have him fabricate a whole me piece. Just need to find the ball.

[Op-Bell]

That Bally Classic is a bit of a rarity. It's a 1971 design. Only about 1500 Classics were ever made and all of them went into the Las Vegas MGM. It was a colossal failure with players and they were all pulled out after a few months. There are probably only about 150 of them left today. There were two in Mickey Wichinsky's estate auction last year, neither of them with MGM glass, but as I recall Mickey had something to do with the design of that machine and probably had a couple of prototypes.

It's an electric machine with motor driven reels. It shouldn't be too hard for a knowledgeable person to troubleshoot, and none of the parts inside is particularly special or irreplaceable. As for a manual, would you care to write one?

[Pkunik]

Thank you for the encouragement on restoring this machine. As to writing a manual?  I'll at least do this: when I get to it I'll do my best to compile some notes and see what I end up with.

Now I'd like to say thank you for the advice I was given on fixing the Continental. I wasn't doing a "hit and run" to this forum to get what I needed then silence. The last day of August my elderly and frail mother fell and broke her hip.  It has been a hard 4 weeks since then, but I am pleased to say she is recovering, which really is a miracle to me considering her condition when she fell. We weren't sure she'd survive the surgery. God had other plans. She is now in a nursing home for rehab and we are hoping to bring her home in a few weeks. Needless to say it makes for very long days. Get up, go to work for 11 hours, go to the nursing home, then home to bed. Repeat.

I do believe I got the wiper units in the right order although occasionally a small payout was missed  or paid when it shouldn't. With the delay caused by my Mom's injuries I did not have time to what I would call properly finish the job, but the owner said it worked good enough and came and got it. I think the few small issues it still had on payouts may have been due to minute adjustments, not the wipers in the wrong order. This is how I ended up putting them:  the furthest left and furthest right wiper were the ones that had the 3 attached fingers on the top, the 2 centers were the ones that only had 2 attached fingers on top. You have to look at them very carefully as you could easily miss how they were attached to each other without actually removing them from the unit. Again, thank you all for the advice. I do look forward to rebuilding the Classic, but that won't be for a while. Also will have to find a reliable source for the few parts it needs that I would call common parts (I hope). Will be a challenge most likely to find the bottom glass that is cracked. As it is a simple 2 color design may not be too expensive to just have a new one made if the Classic is worth it. I have no clue as to restored value. Pinball collectors never liked talking prices unless trying to sell, then mostly it's worth millions. Any of you willing to share conservative estimates (not in it for money, but for knowledge of what to invest as far a restoration). How much have you seen them sell for?  That really is a good marker. Might be better to sell as is if I don't think I can find the time to mess with it.  I had a dealer show up one time to look at some years of overflow I had from my pinball days, this was a pile of jukeboxes and parts I picked up mixed in with pinball machines. Mostly stuff for parts. I probably would have sold the stuff right there for next to nothing, but after 5 minutes of hearing "Oo, look at that ding, too bad. Wow this stuff is dirty." I confess I got red in the face, looked at my brother in law and said lets put this stuff away, leaving the dealer a little open jawed. I hate those games some people play. Heck, I'd have almost given the stuff to them if they hadn't of gone down that road. I'm not ignorant, and certainly not rich, and I do like that lucky find where I make a good deal, but I also wouldn't intentionally cheat someone by lying about value. If someone is  in business and gives me a good price, great!  But I've given private owners who had no idea of value more than their asking price, or even told them to ask more and walked away because I couldn't afford it!  (More than one insisted to sell it to me anyway at their original asking price, they just wanted to get rid of it).  I would buy it then, I'm no fool. My biggest peeve is the folks trying to sell something way over priced because someone told them that is what it was worth. I tell them get this person who quoted them that price to buy it, because no one else will.  Boy, I must be tired because I'm rambling!  Sorry, down off the soap box. 

Would like to have had more time to tinker with the Continental, but am satisfied that for never having worked on a slot, a complicated one I'm told, I was able to undo the messed up reassembly by someone else and get it working.  I also appreciate this forum and the sharing of ideas and the advice.  I'll let this thread run a little longer for closing comments then come back and mark it resolved.

[zinda]

Well, I think I have the Continental about figured out and with a few more hours work should be good to go. I think I have the wiper config right, but have not played it enough to be certain. Will post the right positions when confident it's right. Had to fix a number of linkages on the reel unit. Almost there, had to buy some roll pins for one shaft tonight, will put in tomorrow and then I hope the spinning will be in the right timing. The guy I'm fixing this for had used a small screw for the shaft that drives the timing sequence. The reels were stopping way too soon so fixed a few messed up parts then set it up to the specs, all to no good. Could not get it right until it noticed the sloppy movement where he had put a screw in by the fan. I knew that was the problem then but didn't have a replacement pressure pin.  To test it I put in a soft metal piece I had just to try it out and that was the issue. Question: even with the reels spinning right, if I stopped playing the machine even for a few minutes the first time I'd start playing it again the reels would stop almost immediately after pulling the handle. They would move only one step. Next play they'd spin fine, and keep spinning fine until I again stopped for a few. The first spin all would only move one place on first pull. Then back to normal on additional pulls. Any ideas why?  The shafts and linkages have all been degreaser, as well as possible without disassembly. Thought it might still have some gunk in there that might need loosening up, but it is pretty clean. Not going to worry too much about it, but it is odd 

I did figure out the other machine. It is a Bally classic with the MGM theme. I guess a bit rare, but from what I read a pain to keep working and a pain to fix. Just figures my first experience with slots and I end up with 2 of the biggest pain in the butt to work on units, at least from what I read on the internet. Well, getting experience on the hardest to fix machines will make any future endeavors a piece of cake, right?  With the pneumatic shocks bad that hold up the door, it slammed down on the previous owner and that is what cracked the lower marquee. Probably going to be pricey and almost impossible to find a replacement. Same for the shocks. My brother works  in a machine shop, so if I can fine a ball that goes on the arm he could weld me up the screw onto the arm end to put the ball back on. That's right where it broke off. Worse comes to worse I'll have him fabricate a whole me piece. Just need to find the ball.

When I had my reels stopping immediately on some pulls it turned out to be a gear in the clock assembly. They are made of wood! well 2 of them are. what happens is they will loose a few teeth in some spots and that will let the reels skip into stop mode when it is on that toothless spot. The gears appeared to be made this way to make sure that no other parts are damaged and look to be very easy to replace. Probably were a nickle each way back when but now you can't find em for anything. .  I tried a few failed attempts at replacing the bad gears with some plastic ones and I finally just bought a new clock drive for mine

Really hard to get exact size/tooth matches, I have a large assortment of gears and didn't have exact matches, they will bind super easy if they aren't perfect. Clock drives are easy to find and easy to replace.

One more thing I found out is when you have a clock drive that allows the reels to stop quickly and you want to get more spin on the reels, I found some VACUUM PUMP GREASE rubbed on the gears will slow it down. It's a very thick grease that is clear and is designed to fill gaps in vacuum pumps were they have worn parts or o rings that are loose on sidewalls to improve sealing.