Bally Part ID

[cmk8895]

Question about a part....


I have a Bally slot with a model of 742A, but it seems more like an 809 since it is a 5 line multiplier.  But I really just don't know what it is.


It's in a lowboy cabinet, so it doesn't have the 809 topper.  But it has this part.  What is this?  Is it the odds disc?  It doesn't match anything in the book that I have found, so I can't tell how it works or what the connections are supposed to be, or how to test it.


Ideas?


  Matthew

[DavidLee]

Would like to see photos of the other side.
Curious to see what drivers the unit and where red/white wire leads to.
Possibly the red/white is linked to the cherries.


Unit could be used to transfer or random selection.

[wolftalk]

742A-342 was a triple bar machine for the International Hotel.


your reel tapes aren't triple bar, so one question is whether the serial plate was put on a completely different machine or the game is a conversion of the 742A to something more like a 956 (lowboy 5 coin multiplier).


the stepper unit is not a bally stepper ... they didn't use contact plates with u-shaped wire lugs.


probably the big question is how the machine handles payout multiplication.  If the hopper is mechanically stepped, then the stepper could be an odds follower unit.


on mechanically stepped payout counters, win multiplying was done by paying, then resetting the payout counter and paying again.  Repeat until it payed N times, where N = number of coins played.  The odds follower unit kept track of how many times the payout was reset and disconnected the circuit when it payed enough times.


however, you'd need another stepper in there that is the odds unit.  That controls lighting the appropriate column and works with the odds follower unit for the payout.


if you payout counter is electrically stepped, then the stepper in your picture could just be the odds unit.  However, you need more stuff in there to handle win multiplication ... so lots more pictures of what's inside the machine would help.


in any case, it isn't a bally machine anymore.  With some luck tho, they stuck to a bally design and you can figure out what the pieces all do.

[cmk8895]

Thanks to both of you so far.


I tried to get a pic of the back of the disc thing.  It's difficult and I'm hesitant to take it off not knowing how it works.  Though the front looks nothing like anything in the books, the back actually looks just like the systems such as on the 'big apple' and others.


I also attached a pic of another "thing" next to the reel 1 wiper board.  It is a huge counter box.  With one coin it resets to 0.  With a 2nd coin it advances to 1, and so forth.


Finally is a picture of the hopper.  I don't know how to differentiate between a mechanical and electrically stepped.

One thing I could not get a picture of....  Below the front of the reels beside where the in/out counters mount are several relays.

Thanks!


  Matthew

[wolftalk]

hopper is probably electrically stepped.  Your pic cut off on the right tho.

does the printed circuit plate on the payout counter say:


   M-645-96
    Modified
   Nov. 1st, 1965
   Mar. 10, 1966


not that it would help much if it did ... that wouldn't be the payout counter that came with the 742-342.

the oddest thing is the bar with the '0' displayed behind reel 1 and what looks like extra stuff behind reel 2.

there won't be any documentation for the machine, but you can eventually figure it out. 

does the game more-or-less work?  At least does depositing coins make the odds lights move on the belly glass?  If yes, then you can look at the stepper while operating the coin switch and see if it's stepping up ... and if you push down the reset solenoid plunger if the odds reset to the first level.

[GOS]

how about pics of the inside of machine without the reel and hopper? since this machine looks like a 952 there have to me multiplier units which would be mounted on the cabinet wall OR maybe that special step up mounted on the reel mech is used similar to what 847?  used to multiply - would require hopper to reset to zero once payment amount reached

[cmk8895]

I will get some more pics after work.


It mostly works, yes.  I got it VERY cheap because the reels didn't spin.  They were caked up with crud, so I cleaned and lubed the reel mech and it all worked very nicely.  There was a small problem that I was trying to fix that started all this....


The 2 coin light wouldn't light on the door.  1 and 3 to 5 worked fine, so I suspected something simple.  On that disc thing there was a wire that got pinched in all my in and out with the reels.  It was the second in a series of 6, so I thought that might be it.  I soldered it back, but still no light.  Took it out and found an orange power wire hanging off the back of the disc mech with no clear location it came from, but solder on the end so it was somewhere.  I put it in the most likely location on a solenoid.


When put back together the 2nd light still didn't work, but now ANY win empties the hopper.  I took the orange wire back off, but still empties the hopper.  That disc is obviously supposed to move, but it doesn't, so that's why I was asking about it.


I didn't want to be "that guy" with dumb questions on here, so I was trying to find a resource to learn how that disc was hooked up so I could diagnose myself. I can follow schematics easy enough, but am not good enough to derive how electricals work without a reference.


I guess I'm going to have to ask a ton of questions now.  Sorry about that.


What I find interesting is how original everything looks.  All the wires are still cat gut tied.  Only a couple of cut wires which have obvious reasons (removed counters), all connectors in the right spots and do not appear to have been tampered with, etc.  I guess these machines must have had very interchangeable parts for it to have all different insides, but seemingly original wiring.


I'll get interior case pics and a better hopper pic after work.


Thanks guys!

[cmk8895]

The hopper does have the text you mentioned wolf.


Looking in the various tech sheets you have on cdyn, it does match the electrically stepped.  There is no spring in the cut off portion of the pic.  I'll still get a good pic later.

[wolftalk]

mechanically stepped payout counters almost always only have a reset solenoid on the ratchet side - no step-up solenoid.  The exception is games that could be switched between coin and credit payout.  Some of those have payout counters that were mechanically stepped in coin mode and electrically stepped in credit mode (because no coins were ejecting). 
 
they eventually decided that was daft and later models of those types of machines were electrically stepped in both modes.


pic of the both styles payout counter below.


I guess for the light issue I'd assume they didn't change wire colors at a plug connection, so see what colors are on the lamps and compare to the wire colors on that stepper.  The belly of a 742A didn't have controlled lights, so there should be an extra connector/wiring between the cabinet and coin door to handling lighting the appropriate odds assuming that is a 742A cabinet/door.


interesting machine ... please keep posting what ya find. 

[cmk8895]

@GOS


Here are pics of the inside of the case.


The snipped wires on the block in the upper right are from where someone cut off a candle.


One thing that you can't really see is that there are screw holes right above the shelf where it looks like another terminal block is.  When I got it, there is a whole set of numbered wires with metal u ends like would go on a terminal block that were spread out like the block was removed, then duct taped over to keep them out of the way and not shorting.  I removed the duct tape, black taped each terminal, then bundled them and stuffed behind the shelf out of the way.  I didn't think to undo all that for this pic, but I assume it was some kind of progressive connection or for casino monitoring or something.


The only broken wires in the case are where the counter was removed for the overflow.


On the door there are a few stray wires that I need to track and the coin overflow switch is missing.  Otherwise everything is in working order except that you can just keep putting coins in forever.

[cmk8895]

I'd like to know what this hopper is actually from so I can check wiring and connections and such.  It is the same as wolf posted, but here are a few pics.

[cmk8895]

A couple of other clarifying pics....


reel_back - the lower back of the reel cage lookin 'up'  Note the nice connector on the back of that black counter box thing.  There is a 2nd 'mini' board on reel 2 as wolf pointed out earlier.


reel_relay_block - this is the relay block I couldn't get a pic of before.  I took the reels out so you can see them.  I have zero idea what these do and how they relate to the disc from the original question.  I have done no wire tracing yet.

[wolftalk]

tmi below ... grab a beverage before proceeding
------------------------------------------------------

the M-645-96 payout counter disc was used in quite a few machines with different wiring going to it.


there is some hope tho ... as you pointed out, it looks like an 809.  The 956 is basically an 809 stuffed into a lowboy cabinet.  Whoever did your refurb may have been using an 809 as a reference.


the 8 balls on the tapes were usually on "forty-niner" versions of 742A and 809 machines.  Below is the tape definitions most commonly used on those.  You can see if your tapes match the sequence of symbols.


also, on each slotted metal index disc is stamped either a p-x84-yyy number or a code.  It'd be p-484-yyy (maybe no dashes).  The forty-niners had yyy = [239, 240, 241] frequently, with corresponding codes being  s-49-[1, 2, 3].


the forty-niner machines also most commonly used payout counter w-923-11 below.


where's all this lead?  If your tapes and index discs match the above, then it's probable that any schematic for a forty-niner version of a game will match the reel wiring and maybe the payout counter diagram.   My list doesn't have a forty-niner version of a 956, but there are plenty of 809s.


I only have the schematic for one ... the 809-ZZE.  It'll take me a couple days to get it cleaned up and posted to http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/


there's a bunch of stuff on it related to jackpot metering (100's meter and 50's meter) that you won't have, which simplifies things a lot.  You also don't have the Xn units, which look like small pinball machine score reels (because they were) and their job was to count coins ejected, then send a step up pulse to the payout counter for every n coins. 


e.g. if you play 4 coins, then the payout counter steps once for every 4 coins ejected ... that's how they multiplied the payout.


you have that odd box doing the multiplying function somehow.


do the odds light up the correct column, or is the entire belly glass just lit all the time?

[cmk8895]

Hi wolf.  I love the detail!!!  This is exactly why I come to this site and was a paying member for a while. 


My reels are definitely 49'ers, though I do not see the numbers you mention.  Each reel is marked "49R" 1, 2, and 3.  The reel tapes themselves are BF-49-1, 2, and 3.  While these numbers are different, they perfectly match all symbols for the first 3 reel tape maps in your image (245, 246, 247).


All of this matches the belly glass symbols and payouts as well.


Regarding the belly glass, I have a fully functional one where the lights move on based on the number of input coins.  The only exception being the #2 coin, of course.  I need to finish disassembling the belly to check wiring on that.


It seems kind of weird that the various numbers on this machine all are "close" to something else, but not quite the same thing.  The reel plates being 49R instead of the typical layout you mention.  The reel tapes with BF instead of S.  It's weird. 


I'm hanging on through the work week until I can really dive in to some wire tracing this weekend to get some more info!


  Matthew

[cmk8895]

From wolf's datasheets....


BF-49-1, 2, 3 reel tapes were for the Flamingo Hotel, model 243 49'er.

[wolftalk]

sometimes they left the prefix letter(s) off the codes stamped into the index discs ... if they stamped each letter by hand, they got laz ... efficient.

the H-looking symbol on the belly glass is the Hilton (Flamingo Hilton) logo, so what cmk said looks good!

those tapes are m-220-[791, 792, 793] (below).  The symbols and sequence are the same, but your tapes have a "skinny seven" while the earlier ones had a regular seven.

the index discs are still p-484-[239, 240, 241]

"model 243"  means 742A-243 ... they got tired of adding the 742A in the listing :-)  It's interesting that numbers on your model plate look overstamped ... can you tell if it originally said 243?

my main model list agrees with the above.  The w-923-11 payout counter is right.

the 742A-243 schematic would be w-1046-441 and the reel wiper wiring diagram would be w-1041-[287, 288, 289].  I don't have either of those.

if all that is right, then your game left the factory as a 742A-243 and someone converted it to a 809/956.

I do have the reel wiper wiring diagram for the 809-ZZE, which will be available with the schematic on the http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ site when I get them done.   There's a kinda ambiguous note on that diagram that says "same as w-1041-287-288-289 except wire colors changed"    Not clear if that note belongs with the one above it on the diagram ... if it does, then almost all the wire colors are the same on the two machines.  The difference would just be wires used for tower lights.

[cmk8895]

Well well.  We're getting closer then! 


I thought those stylized H's were the International Hilton, so good to know that it's the Flamingo Hilton.  It looks like we're closer to identifying where "most" of the parts came from!


I thought the same thing about the rating plate.  Unfortunately that is just dirt / ink.  When you look at it in person it is very clearly says 342.  So I think they just stuffed this Flamingo machine into a different cabinet and attached some non standard crap in there. 


Too bad you don't have [size=0px]w-1046-441 or [/size][/size][size=0px]w-1041-[287, 288, 289]  I might have to do some sleuthing to see if such things exist in the world anymore.[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=0px]Thanks for the reel wiper when you get it uploaded.  No rush.  I can't really play until the weekend.[/size]

[cmk8895]

One other weird point....  Being from the Flamingo explains the bizarre color scheme on the reel glass. 

[wolftalk]

I thought those stylized H's were the International Hilton, so good to know that it's the Flamingo Hilton.  It looks like we're closer to identifying where "most" of the parts came from!

that too!  The web is full of niche info :-) - Hilton Hotels & Resorts | Logopedia | Fandom


the paper for non-bally branded machines is harder to come by.  The most likely place is the companies who bought the machines from the casinos and resold them into other markets - usually overseas. 


there used to be an antique mall in reno ... or was it vegas ... with a booth with bins of paperwork.  That was many years ago.


I got my paperwork from Phil Anderson (deceased) at Ace Slots in sparks/reno.  Phil at various times was a bally field service guy, designed a few slots, ran bingo pinballs and slots on route,  and did refurb/wholesale of machines.  A lot of his games and parts inventory wound up at Central Valley Slots, but they've dropped off the map. 


the story phil told me was when bally was cleaning house, phil was supposed to get a lot more documentation, but someone else grabbed it off the loading dock.  I don't remember who he said got it ... I think someone in southern california. 


I'm hoping that once I turn the slots paper site into a real web site, more paper will appear.  In truth tho, the differences between versions of a slot model are usually so minor that the specific game paperwork isn't needed.  It's easy enough to trace wires thru the reels once you figure out how it works ... unless the game has a lot of diodes.

[wolftalk]

the 809-ZZE paperwork is on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots now.


I still have some cleanup to do on the schem, but it's mostly readable now.


there's a lot of circuits going thru the odds disc boxes around the N15 area on the schem.  You won't have any of that, and possibly won't have the 100, 150 and 200 jackpot lockup relays.  Most of that stuff was related to metering the jackpot wins, and most casinos didn't care ... they accounted for hand pays themselves and didn't use the meters.


the odds disc box and X2-X5 units around N7 you also don't have ... your game has the box thing in the reels doing the payout multiplication instead ... somehow.