Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 Rebuild the 861 hopper to a 903d hopper

[SPN]

Sorry I just saw that I missed the 61 so that’s also connected to plug pin 19 now but loos in the other end so far..

Don’t miss the post before this

[wolftalk]

okay, let's deal with a problem first.
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I assume the wires on the step-up coil are 14 and 70.

do this:

1] disconnect 45 (orange arrow, second pic below) from payout relay switch.  You can pull wire 45 out of the machine.
2] disconnect 14 (pink arrow, first pic) from the coil and connect it where 45 was on the payout relay.
 
3] attach wire 75 to the coil where 14 was.  Wire 75 used to be on the plug, then you connected it to wire 14 in the initial rewire, and now it's loose again per post 29 rewire.
4] disconnect wire 91-2 from payout relay (pink arrow, second pic).  Leave it loose, you need it later

questions
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1] you had a 36-1 wire on pin 7 of the original plug.   Where was it going?   The 809-B schem has the same wire but it doesn't connect to anything in the hopper.  Did it just end unattached near the payout relay?

2] did you add a new 36-1 wire, or is that the original one?

3] is the bottom switch on payout relay short stack unused (blue arrow, second pic)
 
optional extra cleanup step:
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1] disconnect 38 and 58-1 from the step-up arm switch blades (green arrows, first pic) and pull those two wires out of the game.   You don't need the 58-1 wire, and you added a new 38 wire, so the original one isn't useful anymore.

end result
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once you get this far, you could install the hopper and the game should pay.  You should have the following loose wires which you need:
- 10-2
- 36-2
- 38-2
- 61-1
- 91-2

you also have wire 53-1, which you don't need but if if you wanted to add a "total out" meter in the future then the meter would connect to wires 53-1 and 70

next steps
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for the next step, got a spare relay like a payout relay?  If so, remove the two screws from either switch stack on it and if you are lucky the switches will be separate pieces stacked together. 

take before/after removing screws pics of what you have and next post will deal with adding switches to the payout relay and the reset pawl switch stacks.   Also compare your spare switch blades to the reset pawl blades to see if they are the same length.

[SPN]

Work in progress and I will try to do as you wrote, I’m little confused since we go back and forth but I guess we do that for a reason 🙈😇

I also added the wire 63 for the door switch to meters but I deal with that later I guess (There is a door switch inside the door) I just wanted to be done with all the wires to the beau plug so I could install it so the plug became more steady. I even tried the hopper in the machine and it didn’t blow any fuses but it emptied the hopper so I guess that’s kind of good, hehe

I read your stuff up and down several times before I understand it and I must say I have respect for your knowledge!

The coin lockout armature didn’t work but I guess that’s a part of the progress..

Thank you for the daily update sir 🙏

[SPN]

I added wire 36 and 38 on to pin 8 and 9 and those are the only one I think..

Yes the only loose wires now is

10
36
38
61
91

Yes I changed the short payout relay stack to a large similar as the other one so now I got plenty of space and the NO switch in the bottom is free..

Let me know if you need any specific picture or something

 

[wolftalk]

got a pic of your new payout relay with the switches mounted?  If you have 3 available NO switches (call them A,B,C below), you can make it work like the 903-A schem shows.

1] connect 10-2 and 38-2 to switch A
2] disconnect 48-1 from the reset pawl switch and connect it to switch B, find a 52-6 wire in your parts and connect it between switch B and the reset pawl switch where 48-1 was
3] wire 30 is already on a payout relay switch.   Either use a bare wire and connect it to switch C, or a piece of yellow wire.  Connect 91-2 to the other blade of switch C

did you add another switch to the reset pawl stack that is closed when the pawl stack is lifted (when the reset coil plunger pulled in and the step-up coil hasn't powered yet)?

one way to do it is like the switch that is on your pawl now, but take the stack apart and swap the long and short blade so the long blade pushes up and closes the switch when the stack is lifted.

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if the hopper turned on when you don't have a winner, that would be a problem.  See if the payout relay is powering.

the coin lockout coil doesn't go thru the hopper.  Jumper the 74-1 wire on the coin switch to the 31-1 wire on the lockout coil to test if the coil/armature works.  If you can't access 31-1 easily on the coil, it'll be on the plug connections to the door.

[SPN]

As you can see I have started to connect the 10 wire on the bottom NO switch and will continue tomorrow since it’s midnight here now.

It’s two free NO switches and the one on the top has both I guess and that one is also free..

I tried the hopper and it paid out correctly twice 2 coins as it should and 5 coins when it should, but suddenly it paid out 9 coins on orange bell bell 

It’s probably some adjustments and I will connect the last wires tomorrow..

The hold mechanism also didn’t work but that’s maybe because of the wires that’s not connected or?

[wolftalk]

payout relay switches look good.  I'd get the resistor out from between the switch blades ... use a wire if you have to, but it looks like you should be able to route the resistor through the wiring or I think you can just swap the stacks on the mounting bar so the resistor doesn't need to reach across a stack.

you need the reset pawl switch for the draw feature to work.  Do you know what to do with that one?  Reset pawl stack in circled in green on post 24 ... different game in that pic, but you have single switch on your payout counter in the same location.  You need two switches there, but the new one needs to be closed when the stack is lifted.

can you post pictures of the top glass and reel glass showing the pay tables.  Can kinda see it in post 6, but can't really read it.

paying 9 instead of 10 would be a problem on the payout counter.  Can deal with that once you're done wiring.

sanity check on the payout counter is to reset and manually step it up.  The wiper fingers should step off the end of the trace on the step = the number on the trace.  e.g. at step 9, wipers should be on the 10 trace end.  At step 10, they should be off the 10 trace.  Verify the trace ends aren't burned/pitted.

[SPN]

I checked and the resistor doesn’t touch the blades even when they move but change the stacks sounds like smart thing to do!

I’m not familiar with the reset pawl but I think I understand and I will try to make one tomorrow, what wires do I use?

Yes I will also check the payout issue, the wipers fingers trace and see if I can find the problem…

[wolftalk]

if you get bored, please email highest possible resolution pics of the game to slotpics@cdyn.com and I'll add them to the stuff on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ ... eventually there will be a real web site for the info.

the closed-at-zero reset pawl switch gets wires 36-2 and 61-1

[SPN]

I think I installed it right didn’t I?

Yes I will send you all the pictures you want just let me know which one

I still have some payout issues and the hold thing doesn’t work

I tried the bench test thing and the coin 1 5 works but 10 was 9..

[wolftalk]

is the payout counter reset in your picture?

I'd guess not since the stack should be lifted and change the switch state when the unit is reset.

not sure what you mean by bench test thing ... you mean you manually stepped up the payout counter 9 times and the wipers were off the end of the 10 trace?  If yes, look at the ratchet side while stepping and see if the pawls grabbed an extra tooth while you were stepping.  You can mark the initial tooth the step-up pawl pushes on the first step and count 9 more teeth and mark that.  That's where the pawl should be on the 10th step.

if you're grabbing two teeth on the first step, you can adjust the zero stop to change that.  However, if you are grabbing two teeth on the first step, you should be stepping off the end of every trace less than 100 one step too early.

highest possible resolution pictures of both sides of the payout counter would be good ... including wiring around the edges.  Are you posting the highest resolution your camera can take, or are you taking lower resolution/downsizing since this forum has size limits that are too low for modern devices?

generally I'm looking for pictures of:
-  the entire front of the game
- inside of coin door
- inside cabinet with everything installed
- as many internal pictures as you have patience for

the usual issue is someone asks "where is the X relay" ... if there's enough pictures from angles at high enough res, people can zoom in and read labels or see wire colors.  e.g. a close up of a stepper unit showing the wipers and rivets isn't very useful, but a picture of the entire unit from back far enough to see where it is in the game and the wire colors attached to the edges is very useful.

[SPN]

First of all I remade and installed a new contact plate assembly since It got damaged when I start testing it (see picture in post 1) and I also changed the ratchet and shaft I think it’s called, the 100 tooth wheel was broken and stopped after step 50..

Now I did a new bench test ( from how to bench test your payboard) and now it’s counting right 2 5 10 14 18

When I play and win one two or three cherry it underpay by one coin every time and it looks like wheel three has some issues since I win with the wrong combination..

Cherry                         1
Cherry  cherry              4
Bell      bell       horse   17
Orange orange horse   9
Cherry  cherry  cherry  9
Plum     Plum    Plum    13

Suddenly yesterday almost everything worked for a while, even the bonus game and it also paid out 20 when I got a horse I center line..

The picture is of the new payout unit…

[wolftalk]

your reset pawl switches circled in red below aren't adjusted right.

when the payout counter is reset, the reset pawl (green arrow) is held up off the ratchet teeth.

in the pic, that pushes the switch stack blades to the left, so the left switch should be closed and the right switch open.

when the payout counter has stepped at least once, the reset pawl sits on the ratchet teeth and the switches should be like in your post 51 picture.

it's always good to look and see if the operation makes sense.  Right now the switches don't change state when the moving blades change position, so that's a big hint something is wrong :-)

fixing those switches should take care of the winner paid light and draw function.

the one difference between you stepping up the payout counter manually and the machine doing it is the machine does it faster and harder, so if the first step is really close to grabbing two ratchet teeth instead of one, the game is more likely to do it.

the fix is adjust the zero stop bumper.  That moves the reset position of the ratchet a little and lets you alter how the ratchet teeth are grabbed on the first step.

you have the older eccentric style bumper (green arrow second pic).  Loosen the bolt and turn the bumper so the wipers shift a little more clockwise at reset.  Snug down he bolt and verify it's still stepping off the traces at the correct steps.

when happy with that, check the zero stop switch (yellow arrow).  It's supposed be open when the payout counter is reset, closed at step 1+.  However, you can be a little sloppy with the adjust as long as it's open at reset and definitely closed at step 2 (the minimum payout assuming the game isn't underpaying).  All the switch does is disconnect the payout counter reset coil when the payout counter is already reset to prevent firing the coil when it's not needed.

if davidlee or others are still following this topic, they may have better suggestions on setting the zero stop position.  I just trial and error and look at where the wipers are on the contact plate at reset.

[SPN]

I’m not sure if I installed the reset pawl switches wrong or if I have to make a adjustment several places, I also looked at one of my other machines and they look the same so I still not quite get it..

What’s the roller switch on the ratchet for and I’m not sure it’s in the right position?

[wolftalk]

the reset pawl switches look ok now assuming the unit is reset.

the reset pawl switches are bent a lot more than usual relay switches, and you sometimes need to bend the long blades to make more downward pressure on closed at step 1+ switch.  Only the long blade tension is providing the contact force.

your step-up arm switches are wrong tho.  Sorry I didn't notice that before.  The peg goes between the blades like in the pic below (red arrow).

the microswitch you circled in blue is the "ratchet cam switch".   When the roller on it goes in a notch, the safety motor power is turned off and the safety motor resets.  The roller is not it a notch when the payout counter is reset, so yours is ok.

the purpose of the circuit is to detect if the payout counter is not stepping and shut the machine down before the hopper is dumped out to the very happy player.

your 809 hopper is electrically stepped so there's more things that can go wrong ... so they added the extra circuits to try and detect a problem with payout counter stepping.

the 903-A doesn't have that circuit because the payout counter was mechanically stepped.  There's still a safety motor that will shut down the game, but it doesn't reset during payout on a 903-A.  I assume the 903-D was the same.   

your safety motor will reset during payout because wire 40 going to the safety motor is being controlled like an 809.  It should work fine and will shut down the game a lot faster if there's a payout counter stepping issue.

[SPN]

With very good help from Wolftalk the best! I could never done this without your knowledge and endless good help and tons of patience thru the steps transfer the 861 hopper to fit my 903d Bally mustang and now it’s working perfect and even looks almost new!

I'm restoring an old 903d Bally mustang who have been stored away for more than 30 years and was not in very bad condition and was only good as parts. but to my surprise all the glass was I perfect condition without any scratch or anything, so after taking the whole machine apart I started to rebuild it after cleaning and upgrade several parts it’s finally back in working condition and it looks pretty good if you ask me and thanks to you guys here on NLG the game can serve me and all my guests for many years and one less game end up as parts!