Hopper Jam (coins falling off shelf)

[Travis4]

Hi,
I have an E-2000 that is working well with the exception that the nickel payouts often fail and require a machine reset. Looking at the action it appears that there are occasionally empty coin slots on the pinwheel that causes the problem (error 31 - hopper jam). There has never been a "jam", just the empty slots.  The wiper is set so that it just touches a single coin. The knife was replaced with a new one and the shelf, which was for quarters was replaced with a slightly larger diameter shelf made for nickels. None of this has helped.
I would like to be able to fix this however alternately I would just be happy if the Slot would be happy with a less accurate payout as this is in a private residence situation where a wrong payout is OK but constant resets is not.


Can anyone suggest what I should look to adjust? I am suspicious of the wiper adjustment but having tried more or less pressure it does not seem to change the problem much. I have attached some photos, none of which show an empty slot, but it happens fairly often, at least once in 10 coins.

[rickhunter]

On my hopper based games, I have occasional empty spots as well on the pinwheel and it doesn't cause any issues, it just takes longer to pay.  What is the exact error you are getting, I don't believe it's because you have empty slots from time to time as that should happen normally anyway.  Have you cleaned out optics?  Maybe a coin goes by the mechanical switch, but doesn't register in the optics?

[Travis4]

What you say makes sense that it should not get upset about one missed coin, but that is not what I see happening.....No optics here on this E-2000, just a microswitch.  It definitely gets upset about a missing coin. I can pluck one off the pinwheel and it will error out (31) when it passes that spot every time. It would be nice if it would just run a bit longer on a missed spot but it does not.
Switch clicks about halfway up the stroke from rest to top of coin. Maybe I need to change that trip point some more??
Thanks for the response. Anyone who has one of these machines has seen it work longer than I have and experience counts.

[rickhunter]

Interesting, I figured with all the cheating in the mid to late 80's on the machines that all machines around that time would have upgraded their hoppers.  Even my old bally EM misses coins from time to time. Learn something new every day!

[Jim]

in your subject matter, you describe (coins falling off shelf)  what does that mean?  when you changed the shelf wheel did you put everything back in the right place?  you have three screws holding the agitator in place, one of those screws is about 1 inch long, it has to be screwed into the right position or else your hopper pin wheel will free spin, maybe that's why you are getting a 31 code which may mean overpaid by one coin. if the pin wheel is not secured properly it will tend to continue to move forward after the motor has stopped (inertia) . On the back side of the pin wheel there is a screw placed close to one of three agitator mounting holes (perhaps within a 1/2 inch). the longer screw has to go in that position hole to provide a stop for the motor roll pin , any easy way to tell if the pin wheel is locked into that position is too: empty the coins out of the hopper,  now turn the pinwheel, if it will travel around 360 degrees and stop, and you can go clockwise or counterclockwise for 360 degrees and stop then the screw is in the wrong position.

also I noticed that the tip of your knife has to bent ever so slightly to be resting on the shelf wheel, it appears to be raised up about 1/16 of an inch.

hope this helps

Jim

[Travis4]

I pulled it apart and confirmed that the roll-pin was properly trapped, and put a slight bend in the knife tip, but it really did not help. I then carefully watched the action using test 4 and it seemed to me that at times the coin passing the switch got jammed and would fly off the pin-wheel.  I noticed ( see picture) that it looked like the switch roller was so low on the coin as to trap it rather than lift up, so I added a little rubber stop ( 2nd picture ) to raise the switch roller a bit so it now hits a little higher on the nickel.  I have run the 10 coin test multiple times now and it has not error-ed out however at times it only spits out 9 ( says 10 on display ) and then on the next cycle it will spit out 11.  I report this, not because that bothers me, but that problem might mean something to someone who has encounterd this before and could point to brake problems, etc.
Anyway, I appreciate the suggestions which spurred me to more efforts to resolve the issue.  Not sure if this is a known problem or not, but it seemed to help the problem on this particular hopper.
Thank you Jim
Travis

[ramegoom]

If that guide spring is touching the coins, it could be flipping them off the wheel. It should be adjusted to just barely glide over the coins but not put pressure on them. New nickels have high ridges on the outer faces, where old nickels are usually worn.

I use only no-date buffalo nickels in all of my machines because they run smoother and don't jam.

[Travis4]

nice tip.....

[Stayouttadabunker]

Certain hopper wheels can be turned around inside out too...the wheels get worn on the outside so flipping them inside out helps the coins stay on the shelf.

[Sunrise Side]

Do you have the correct pinwheel and shelf wheel for Nickel setup?  The  shelf wheel looks to be slightly small and the pinwheel looks like a large coin type pinwheel.  Some please chime in.

[Jim]

Tim,  I think you hit the nail on the head. That is a large coin pin wheel, I'll look through my pile and see if I can find the different pinwheels and shelf wheels for comparison. 

Jim

[Stayouttadabunker]

I'm sure Jim will have one for ya!
Once I wanted one for nickels but only had a large denom pinwheel....so what did I do?

I used a grinder and grinded off all the nibs from the steel wheel...smooth and flat.
Then I applied tiny micro-welds with my wire-feed welding machine.
I spaced the welds/ nibs onto the wheel about 3/16ths of an inch wider than the diameter of a quarter. 
I remember having to use the grinder to make the left side of the welds flat so they would "grab" the coins.

It actually worked well!  and the coins came out fast as heck because the wheel had a LOT more coin slots on it!


I wish I still had it! 

[Travis4]

I think you are right about the pinwheel being wrong for nickels but here is my problem....
I have a brand new pinwheel (see picture) with shorter nubs, and it came with the nickel shelf I am presently using and the one marked 25 cents which was the same diameter as the one I removed, but I could not figure out how to mount the pin-wheel itself as it differs from the existing pinwheel in an important aspect --- The 3 holes for the screws that go though the agitator and shelf plate, also go through this pin-wheel which is not tapped for those screws like the existing plate is.  What should I do?? put nuts behind it??
Please tell me and I'll try it.
Had no idea so all I did was change the shelf plate and knife which also came with the set.
The small nib pin-wheel without tapped holes is marked P 842-9B
BTW, the payout is working much better than it had since I put that piece of rubber in there, but it still messes up occasionally.
Travis

[Sunrise Side]

Quarter and Nickel  shelf wheels are different diameters.  I think you should get the correct shelf wheel and pinwheel.  You could tap the holes on the pinwheel that does not have threaded holes.

[Travis4]

Yes, I installed the smaller diameter shelf but you cannot tap a pinwheel with holes larger than the screw thread. The only possibility I see is to place nuts behind the pinwheel, but the one on the long screw would interfere with the motor roll-pin I fear. maybe it wouldn't, I'd have to see again how far back from the plate that roll pin is.
Doesn't it seem odd that the new pinwheel has large holes?? and the original is tapped??

[Sunrise Side]

What you bought was a Quarter setup for a newer hopper. That is the wrong pinwheel for that hopper. It's a newer pinwheel. Either get the correct pinwheel or tap the holes and get larger screws. You need a nickel shelf wheel. It will be larger then the quarter shelf wheel if you get the correct size.

[Travis4]

If I had thought about the problem a little more, in particular the early comment that a missing coin on the shelf should not cause the Slot to get upset - I probably would have figured out the real problem here.
I got this slot in a state where it had not run, maybe never run in the possession of the last owner and there were many things that needed to be corrected. One of them was wiring, which would normally not be a suspect on a past working machine.  In this case the hopper coin switch was wired backwards so a missing coin looked like a jam.
Switched the wires and now it is OK with the occasional missing coin which I have also found is an unavoidable occurrence.
Thanks to all who helped on this. Maybe it will help someone else down the road.