Paying when it shouldn't with Bell problem

[wolftalk]

The reels are stamped

LEFT 684 467
CENTER 684 468
RIGHT 684 468

the right reel would usually be 684-469, but it could be a variant.  A machine that used 467-469 was model 1113-17 (triple bar left/right pay 25 cent)


that game also used G-358-170-25c for the reel glass and G-359-356-25c for the top display glass.


unfortunately, I don't have paperwork on the reel contact plates.  I do have docs on the index discs and reel tapes, but those aren't too useful.  I also have a schem for the base 1113 machine - tho that's a $1 lowboy that only uses CH, BA, BE and OR symbols on the reels, so your game would have different wiring on the reel contact plates.


it is fairly straightforward to make your own diagrams by looking at the wiring on the back of the reel contact plates,  but as Jim said the most likely thing is a wiper bridging rivets or a short on the wiring side of the contact plate. 


if you pay is valid for 2+ coins but shouldn't pay on 1 coin, make sure the stepper unit in the top is resetting all the way and wipers aren't bridging rivets on that.  You can't typically adjust the wiper finger position, but you can loosen the entire contact plate and rotate it a little in each direction to get the wiper contacts centered as best as possible on the rivets.


I'll put what I have at http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots on 12/17

[OldReno]

Sounds like a fun problem.
First question is - when it misplays, how much does it pay??
It appears this is a modified 809 machine as it does not seem to be a wide body, and these type ‘buyapays’ were not made except in wide body style.
Next your 90 wire generally feeds for 1st coin, then 91 (grey red) powers 2nd coin, lastly 92 or 93 is for 3rd coin. You can verify this by looking at odds disk for grey wires.
This should help you make sense of the wiring through your reel boards.
Does not appear to be a complicated board design, unlike some of the 5line XX machines.
If you get really stuck, put a piece of paper under the suspected bad reel wiper segment, put mech back in and then push back on your variator (timing bar) to reset hopper. If it pays again, go on to next wiper finger and repeat.
I still lean toward bad cut in the back of the wipers...
Keep at, it’ll get figured out.
Have you mapped out the pay cuts on your reel index boards yet?  A sharpie & notepad will let you map the reel disk cuts & pay structure.

[ncrguy]

Yes it's 649 I made a typo.

[ncrguy]

When it pays and it shouldn't with one coin, it pays the correct amount bell/orange/plum and the the worse part the bell rings and stops after the pay out. If your playing 2 or 3 coins and the any/bell/bell comes up the bell rings, pays out but bell doesn't stop ringing!


Not sure if that helps but again I'm just going to disconnect the bell I bet in the end.

[OldReno]

Have you looked at the cuts made in the back of your reel wiper arms?
They separate the circuits, and are needed to keep everything from ‘feeding’ together.

[ncrguy]

Have you looked at the cuts made in the back of your reel wiper arms?
They separate the circuits, and are needed to keep everything from ‘feeding’ together.

How do they look? I took them off and now can get a better shot of the boards.


the 2nd one is different I can see that now.
was the 2nd one replaced or is that original and 1 and 3 replaced?

[OldReno]

Ok, GREAT pics.
Next with wipers on, place each of them in the deepest cut for each reel. Mark position with a sharpie at top on board, & this is position #1. Write on paper for each reel what that symbol is.   It appears you have 8 different pay cuts. I will assume that 3bar is deepest, 2bar next and 1bar 3rd. This is because I see on your boards that your first 3 cuts appear to be joined to bars mixed relay area.  Of course I may be wrong. 
Do this for every cut in the disks.
Great problem.
Let me study your photos more, but you can draw lines with your sharpie on the backs of your boards (wire side) to show you how the wiper cuts separate things. This should help in figuring it out.
Great puzzle, thx.
Will get back to you.
I’m thinking this is an 809 made into a buy a pay, with 7’s added.

[OldReno]

Ok, you might want to make a cut on your reel#1 wiper between the 6th and 7th buttons.
I think your odd barpays are feeding back because of this. Somebody probably forgot to make the cut.
No biggie because you can solder it back together like the 2nd reel wiper was done.
Let me know if that works. I think it will.
Either that or it might fix your ringing bell problem...?

[OldReno]

On second thought, you can just bend up 7th & 8th wipers so they don’t make contact.
That way, if i’m Wrong you don’t have to solder. Lol

[ncrguy]

Ok, GREAT pics.
Next with wipers on, place each of them in the deepest cut for each reel. Mark position with a sharpie at top on board, & this is position #1. Write on paper for each reel what that symbol is.   It appears you have 8 different pay cuts. I will assume that 3bar is deepest, 2bar next and 1bar 3rd. This is because I see on your boards that your first 3 cuts appear to be joined to bars mixed relay area.  Of course I may be wrong. 
Do this for every cut in the disks.
Great problem.
Let me study your photos more, but you can draw lines with your sharpie on the backs of your boards (wire side) to show you how the wiper cuts separate things. This should help in figuring it out.
Great puzzle, thx.
Will get back to you.
I’m thinking this is an 809 made into a buy a pay, with 7’s added.

like this?

[ncrguy]

On second thought, you can just bend up 7th & 8th wipers so they don’t make contact.
That way, if i’m Wrong you don’t have to solder. Lol

could you circle on one of my pics what i should bend?
 

[wolftalk]

there were a few 809 models with 22 stops.  Unfortunately, I don't think I have any reel documentation for those.


below is the reel contact plate diagram for a 1088.  That was a wide-reel machine with left-right buy-a-pay.  It looks like it matches the wiring on your reel contact plates...but the wiper configuration is different - which is what oldreno is working thru.  [the diagram is in http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/1088-31/ ... it's too big for the 1MB file size limitation on this site.


if nothing else, it may be worth comparing the 1088 diagram to you reels - see if the wire colors attached to the contact plates match the diagram.  if not, you can correct the diagram and that'll help you figure out whether the wipers make sense.


pictures that show the wiring side of the reel contact plates including enough of the wiring attached to the lugs to see the colors is ideal.


the diagrams for the reel tapes and index disc are now on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/1113-17.  The schem for the base model 1113 is at http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/1113 along with the matching documentation.  There were two variants of the base 1113.  They used:
- tapes m-239-[1-3] with index discs p-684-[341-343]

- tapes m-239-[10-12] with index discs p-684-[294-296]

both variants used the same contact plate wiring (W-1041-[2685-2687]), so the difference should be what symbols are on the reel tapes and therefore the payback percentage of the game.

the only real use for the 1113 stuff is if you need to make your own documentation, you can see how the docs match.  The ones you are missing is the w-1041-x reel diagram and the schematic.

[OldReno]

Ncrguy, go to 1st reel wiper. Count down 7 buttons & bend it away from the reel board so it doesn’t touch. Do same with 8th button. Or you could put tape on those 2 buttons, but you’t Have to clean it off. Try what’s easiest for you.
I am used to working on machines without schematics, and after time, it’s not too hard.
To map your cuts start at beginning of the reel strip, where it indexes, mark that symbol on the board  just above where the wiper sets . E.g. 3b for triple bar, p for plumb, etc. do this for each symbol around the reel, and you will have a better idea of what’s going on.  This is a great practice for anybody who is having Odd pays.  With this method  you can tell easily if your reel disc has been put on the reel Tin improperly. On your machine you should have only one kind of pay per position. I hope this makes sens

[wolftalk]

I added the associated 1088-31 schematic.   Below is what you care about for the bell.


for the bell to ring, the circuit highlighted in green needs to connect to the circuit highlighted in blue.  The purple reel wipers do that.


note on the 1088-31, the bell rings when the payout relay is powered and the win is 7's, any bars or bells.  Lotsa ringing. Most games would just connect the sevens.  Since your game appears to be wired like the 1088-31, you'll need earplugs, mods to the reel plate wiring to disconnect the pays you don't want to hear, misadjust the payout relay switch so wire 30 never connects to wire 45, or disconnect the bell.



oldreno is questioning whether the connections between your wipers fingers are correct.  Since all the rivets on the contact plate connect back to wire 30 eventually, if the wrong wiper fingers are tied together, you'll get the bell ringing when it shouldn't and probably payouts when you shouldn't.


your wipers definitely do not match the 1088-31.  The wipers that connect 5 rows of rivets should be cut between the bottom 3 fingers and the 4th.  The 4th and 5th finger stay tied together.


if your 5 wiper span is the reel 1 wiper, you'd ring the bell any time 2+ coins were played and the first reel stopped on any bar.  The bell would stay ringing until you coin because you'd be connecting the bell circuit to wire 91.  Coining would power the handle release relay and/or coin relay and/or reset the coin unit ... any of which will disconnect wire 91 from wire 30 (eventually thru other stuff) and break the circuit.

[ncrguy]

Good news to report:
The problem of paying with one coin is gone!
after putting tape as suggested and putting the wipers back on, and adjusting them once, and having to adjusted them a 2nd time the machine started paying. with one coin only cherry pays and not others, two coins the pay is good, with 3 coins the 3x 2bars the pay is off should be 50, it was 58 coins once and 54 coins a 2nd time (I don't care but i figured i'd report it)


as far as the bell ringing, there aint no ringing at all, not even on a 7's win.


thank you all for your help, as a repair tech myself in life I understand that troubleshooting problems and running into the odd and strange problems. So I thank you all


before the tape was on sometimes the bell would ring when it shouldn't


the bell would ring when it should but wouldn't stop ringing


the only time the bell would ring and turn off was when it shouldn't of with one coin playing and paying on the bar/bell/bell


with that said and some tape covering up 7 and 8, if you can think of something i could try i'm open and wiling to try it, but again THANK YOU, you guys are awesome.
 


i'll post some pics once i'm done, i've taken all the chrome off, lots of cleaning to do and Glass to figure out how to make.

[OldReno]

Cool. Good work, now you can cut that wiper if you wish to get your bell back. Make a notch between the 5th and 6th set of rivets which hold the fingers on like in your photo.
Outboard wiper for 50 pay needs to be adjusted on your hopper payboard, it’s staying on the tab too long.
Right on...

[ncrguy]

Cool. Good work, now you can cut that wiper if you wish to get your bell back. Make a notch between the 5th and 6th set of rivets which hold the fingers on like in your photo.
Outboard wiper for 50 pay needs to be adjusted on your hopper payboard, it’s staying on the tab too long.
Right on...

That is where the cut should be made?
Measure twice cut once, want to check.

[OldReno]

Dat’s the spot. Let us know how that affects your bell...

[ncrguy]

Take the tape off after the cut? Or leave it on?

[Amechanic]

Once you make the cut, you can remove the tape and try it again..