1090 payout problems please help

[Amechanic]

Do you have a  Scotch-Brite pad? Use that to clean and shine up those boards traces. Even a Super Fine Sand paper like 500 or 600 grit. I have those grits in a wet/dry type. You need to get that all cleaned up. Does the contact piece look burnt? What is the parts number on that trace board? I know I have some but not all of those wiper boards.

[Lee Pfeifer]

M645-129
I scotch brighted the heck out of it , I straightened out those bad spots as best I could , I’m most definitely in the market for a new one .

[wolftalk]

if the trace burned away enough and filled with grease, you can lose the connection.  Did you take a picture of the cleaned off plate?


you can check things using an ohmeter:


1] make sure the coin unit is reset
2] remove the hopper unit so you don't have a circuit path thru the payout counter step-up coil to make things harder
3] attach meter to the two wires on the X3 contact plate and step the X3 unit.  At every 3 steps you should see almost zero ohms when the wiper is on the 3/6/9/12 traces, the other steps infinite.


at the steps were the wiper should connect, rock the wheel a little back and forth and see if the connection is flaky.


it looks like you are in luck if the problem is burned traces as the trace pattern is symmetrical.  You can look at the back side to confirm, but I assume pads 3, 6, 9 and 12 are all connected together and attached to the yellow/brown wire.   You can use pads 2, 5, 8 and 11 instead to get new traces for the wiper contact to land on IF there are no other switches mounted on the unit frame that are sensing the position of the wheel.


you can leave the 3,6,9,12 pads connected together, just move the yellow wire to pad 2 and run a new wire connecting 2,5,8 and 11.


if you do take it apart again, video that :-) 


the next thing is why the edges of the pads are burning...i.e. why are the wiper contacts not centered on the trace pad.  Is the contact worn away on the bottom of the white ratchet piece?  The burning itself is kinda normal - the entire current needed to power the payout counter step-up coil is running thru that contact/trace connection ... wear and crud will make it arc, and that vaporizes the trace.


btw, in the post above I screwed up and said the reel goes around in 9 steps.  It's 12 as your video clearly showed and I forgot :-(  I'll edit the post and this paragraph won't make sense.

[Lee Pfeifer]

WolfTalk,
I did not take a picture after I cleaned it , I think I want a brand new one , but let me think about what you have written .

[OldReno]

Clean your board well. Make sure the 2 button contacts on your wheel make good contact. Check the jumper on back of board to ensure the 3,6,9 and 12 tabs are all connected. Make sure after assembly the wheel is free to move completely around. Often a wire can get caught on the wheel and stop it from turning.

[Lee Pfeifer]

Old Reno ,
I wonder why this board has all these burn marks

[wolftalk]

I think I want a brand new one , but let me think about what you have written .

new may be harder to find.  Used should be easier, but you need a parts game that used a 12 position contact plate.  Note that the M.645.129 number is not the bally part number used in the manuals, so if trying to find one, just send someone the picture.


if you were desperate, you could elongate the two holes to allow cocking the contact plate a bit to get the contacts onto good metal.   The screw will hold the plate into position.


since you can probably use the [2,5,8,11] or the [1,4,7,10] pad sets to accomplish the 1/3 ratio, your contact plate should last our lifetimes.


the wipers screwed to the bottom of the white plastic ratchet are more of a concern.  I don't know if they are the same on the 10 position and 12 position units.  If they are (they should be since they just connect one pad to the middle ring), new ones should be available from the pinball parts suppliers or good used parts should be plentiful.

the burn marks are normal wear and tear ... it's just years of people playing max coins.  If you want to get geeky, the issue is where the energy that is stored in the magnetic field in the coil goes when the power is removed.  A very high voltage spike occurs when the field collapses, and that's happening as the wiper is moving off the edge of the pad.   If the wiper is off the pad, the energy has to jump the gap ... you've got a little spark plug, and every spark blasts away a little bit of the metal.


you can minimize this by adjusting the hopper pulse switch with wires 60-1 (solid brown) and 36 (yellow/brown) to open as quickly as possible, then if a spark happens it will be at those switch contacts.  It's still very much a race, and over time the trace pads are going to burn.
 

[Lee Pfeifer]

WolfTalk,
Do you think KLAR would have a reel ? With all the cleaning, why hasn’t there been any change ? And if I line up that X to the reference mark it pays accurately on a single cherry 🍒, but if I line up the X on the reference mark and try another pay besides cherry it doesn’t pay accurately.
I’m really hoping I don’t have to rewire this thing but I’m willing and I’m grateful that you have the knowledge to assist me if I have to rewire .

[wolftalk]

With all the cleaning, why hasn’t there been any change ?

because enough of the trace pad metal is gone that the wiper contact is not touching the remaining metal.  It is possible per oldreno that the issue is a bad solder connection.  You'd want to ensure that the 3,6,9 and 12 traces are connected together by probing the traces themselves ... not on the wire or solder blob.

And if I line up that X to the reference mark it pays accurately on a single cherry 🍒, but if I line up the X on the reference mark and try another pay besides cherry it doesn’t pay accurately. I’m really hoping I don’t have to rewire this thing but I’m willing and I’m grateful that you have the knowledge to assist me if I have to rewire .

some of the wiper<->pad connections are fine.  Certainly the 12 trace is good.  The 9 trace looks the most suspect, but hard to see without a pic after cleaning.


you don't need to remove the wiring jumpering the 3,6,9,12 terminals together, just leave it.  Add another wire tying 2,5,8,11 together, then move the yellow/brown wire from lug 3 to lug 2 and see what happens.


if you don't want to do any soldering ahead of time and have jumper wires, you can jumper 2,5,8,11 together but you'll still need to clip off the yellow/brown wire and jumper it to one of the 2,5,8,11 spots.

keep in mind the first time you test the pay may be wrong....it depends where the wiper is positioned.  If you do use 2,5,8,11, step the unit so the wiper is on 1,4,7 or 10 and the pay should be right.

is it clear what the unit is doing and how the payout is getting multiplied?  I realized I ramble on and confuse people, so if something doesn't make sense, just ask again and I'll confuse you a different way, then someone else will clarify it :-)

[rdaniel]

Alan at KLAR might be very helpful. He has a wide selection of parts. Give him a call and see what he says.

[Lee Pfeifer]

I was asked for a video dissembling the X3 reel so here it is , plus I’ve decided to clean , debur , sandpaper the wiper board again , stay tuned !!! 


Here’s the disassembly video [size=78%]https://youtu.be/8KyvXk4Kd-I[/size]

[Lee Pfeifer]

I also got a request for pics after cleaning , here they are in one pic I pointed to a possible break , I’m using magnifying headgear so I have the advantage. Anyways here’s the pics

[Lee Pfeifer]

Guess what ??


That fixed it now it’s paying properly, this is the best group in the world , I can’t wait to meet y’all !
I went in there like a banshee , I knocked those nicks off with a screwdriver and I sanded the heck out of that wiper board .
I’ve learned so much over the last couple of days and I owe it all to you guys !
Thank you
LEE

[wolftalk]

I've seen worse.  It depends on where the contact is sitting every time the unit steps.  I'll be in the same relative position on all the pads.  If the contact is sitting on a spot where the metal is gone or right on the edge of a burned away area, you've found the problem.


if the contact looks like it's sitting on metal at each step, then you'll want to verify the pad area is connected to the wiring.  Do you have an ohmeter or a test light?  If not, just reflow the solder connections and if you think where the screwdriver is pointing is cracked, flow solder over the crack to both sides of the trace ... but do not put solder in the areas the wiper sweeps around or try to replace missing metal with solder.


make sure the solder is connecting each wire to its trace.  The thru-hole that the wire goes through doesn't make a reliable connection to the trace, so you need solder to join the wire onto the trace surface.

cleaning off the entire trace is cosmetic, all that matters is the pad area where the wiper contact touches.  Most people smear a thin film of mineral oil or light grease over the wiper contact area to reduce oxidation and wiper contact wear.




if you have trouble again, don't forget to check the wiper contacts.  If they are worn away, only the wiper finger is touching the trace pad and you'll usually get lots of arcing.

personally, I'd still move the wiring to 2,5,8,11 just to get off the burnt pads, but you'll never find out how long it lasts as is if you do that :-)

[Lee Pfeifer]

WolfTalk,
Sometimes my payout counter , the one with the hundred teeth , every once in a while it doesn’t reset on the first play after a win . Why is that ??

[wolftalk]

Sometimes my payout counter , the one with the hundred teeth , every once in a while it doesn’t reset on the first play after a win . Why is that ??

assuming my schem matches your game, there's only two switches in the circuit ... and the plug connections between the reels and hopper.


1] the zero switch on the payout counter with yellow and orange/black wires
2] reel mech B-3 switch with the same orange/black wire and a black/white wire


clean and adjust those switches.  I think oldreno said where they are previously ... maybe in a previous topic.  I always forget where stuff is.

[Lee Pfeifer]

Thank you Sir