1088-2 Tilt Light On, Hopper Not Working

[Karloz25]

@davidlee
I check for loose wires on both the hopper and payout unit, as well as the male and female plugs. All good.
I cleaned all switches on the Payout Counter Unit and Hopper.
They did have black in them and cleaned up to a gold or silver color.
Tomorrow I will work on cleaning the leafs on the Reels and upper cabinet where the Coin Stepper is.




Wolftalk, I used the orange lug from the main fuse box.
Unfortunately it did not give life to the hopper, door closed, coins in, winning combo, no payout. Nothing moved.
Tilt light still on. 

 




I noticed earlier that this coil does not engage ever, not sure what it’s for? Also there is a modern switch trigger behind it that doesn’t look to be hooked up to anything to trigger it? On the front side of the door is the coin in and coin release drop.






Thanks again guys for helping me, hopefully we can get this beauty properly working again.

[DavidLee]

Okay, you’re making progress.

It’s best to clean not more than two areas at one time without testing.
Clean a switch stack then test or a unit then test.
This way you’ll know what correction made the difference.

I’ve seen those coil door locks, but none of them were ever hooked up.

[Karloz25]

Okay, you’re making progress.

It’s best to clean not more than two areas at one time without testing.
Clean a switch stack then test or a unit then test.
This way you’ll know what correction made the difference.

I’ve seen those coil door locks, but none of them were ever hooked up.

Reading this guide, I guess the reel sends the signal to the payout and hopper of a winning combo is detected. What can I trouble shot at the reel assembly to try to fix the “TILT” light and “WINNER PAID” light that is always on, with no pay?

Also, I don’t want to get into other repairs without fixing the main one first, but I’ve noticed the icons never really line up on the pay line, not sure if a person should be sitting or standing while playing to get a different angle of view. But looking at it dead on, it doesn’t line up with the pay line. Some are a bit off, not straight, but I’m guessing the icons on the reels have slipped and need to be tightened and repositioned. But just a thought since I don’t know if the icons are moved and I’m getting a false visual win. I wonder if there is a notch or starting point that the reel strip should align to?

[DavidLee]

The reel tapes have slipped slightly.


Set up two cherries on the pay line.
Attached one lead of an ohm meter to the solid gray wire.
Located on the 3rd reel wiper board near the top left in most cases.


I believe the cherries wire out is red/white and this would be on the first reel wiper board.
There should be continuity at this point.


Winner paid light would direct me to the payout step up unit bottom right of the machine.
As in not resetting completely or the contacts are not opening.

[Karloz25]

Thanks, I will test the cherrys when I get home from work after today.


As for the payout unit.
I’ve cleaned all the leads.
I’ve replaced the gummed up stopper with a eraser.
I’ve manually pressed the coil with the weights and it did step and move the disc.
The disc has been cleaned and all contacts.
I’ve pressed the top coil with weights and it return the disc to the start state again.
No wires are loose.
When the card board was placed on the hopper and it went crazy spitting out quarters, the payout unit was in action the whole time.


That’s what I have done at the payout unit thus far.
Any ideas what else I can do there?

[Karloz25]

The reel tapes have slipped slightly.


Set up two cherries on the pay line.
Attached one lead of an ohm meter to the solid gray wire.
Located on the 3rd reel wiper board near the top left in most cases.


I believe the cherries wire out is red/white and this would be on the first reel wiper board.
There should be continuity at this point.


Winner paid light would direct me to the payout step up unit bottom right of the machine.
As in not resetting completely or the contacts are not opening.

I need more info, below is my setup. I tried the 3rd reel top grey on either side and basically any wire with red on 1st reel, nothing.







I get continuity with the second roll of wires with 2 cherries lined up, but then again on the third reel, I can test Almost the whole second roll of wires gives continuity with it aligned with the red wire in the first reel?

[DavidLee]

You’re on the right track.


Trace back from the cherries to the 3rd wiper.


I might be mistaken about the gray wire, could be gray red.


Anyway start with the cherries and verify each step.
From the rivet to the wire on the first cherry.
Connect to the wire, then trace to the next cherry solder joint.
Check for continuity.
Then prob the 3rd wiper board for continuity. Pretty sure it’s going to be a gray maybe with color.
When you get continuity all the way across pull the middle wiper back.
This should interrupt the signal.


Proving this portion of the circuit is okay.
Leaving a possibility, that from the gray to the beau plug. Here a pin or socket could be pushed out of the housing.


Note this circuit is fairly strong as it is static.

[wolftalk]

continuity isn't the best way to test as it can't detect a poor connection that limits current flow.  It will catch open connection ok tho. 


your goal is to get the payout relay to power ... it'll turn on the hopper so the payout happens.


since you are comfortable checking voltages, I'd do this:


1] clip a meter probe on red/yellow wire 13 on reel 1, 2 or 3 wiper boards
2] clip other meter probe on wire 70 ... coin relay is handy
3] set up a single cherry on reel 3
4] stick reel mech back in game and turn it on (coin relay and handle release relay need to be reset ... i.e. state after spin and before depositing a coin to start a new game)


got 50V?  If no, move the probe from wire 13 to the solid grey wire 90 david mentioned - it's on all three reel wiper boards.  If still no 50V, keep going up the circuit highlighted below until you find where the 50V disappears.   You must have it at the green highlight or the handle release wouldn't work, so that just leaves:
- coin relay switch
- handle release relay switch
- reel wipers connecting wire 90 to 13
- payout counter wipers -> traces -> wire 93-5 to payout relay
- plug connections


Not shown on the schem is plug locations in the wiring, but you'll get the hang if it.  e.g. if no 50V on wire 90 on the reel mech, but you have 50V on wire 90 on the handle release relay switch, the plug connection between cabinet and reels has a problem.

the tilt light is on when the hopper cutoff relay is unpowered.  Until you get the right resistor and fix the hopper cutoff relay operation, just yank out the relay to keep the light off or ignore the tilt light ... it doesn't affect anything else.

the payout relay cannot power if you don't have the red/blue lug on the coil connected to wire 70.   Since a jumper wire dangling around is inconvenient, if you pull out the hopper cutoff relay can you jumper wire 70 to 12 in the socket using a wire/paperclip?

you can also jumper solid  yellow wire 30 to anyplace along the yellow highlight path and the payout relay should power.


since no payout is working and the coin unit creates multiple paths thru the reels, it's much more likely the problem is the coin relay switch, handle release switch, or payout relay itself since they affect all pays ... assuming your payout counter is reset.

[Karloz25]

OK, so thanks for all this detailed help, but im starting to get a bit lost here, lol. I cant really understand the schematics to well, im more of a visual guy....


But, here's what I did so far, hope it helps;


I probed the Reels, Red/Yellow wire and the Grey wire at Reel 3, with a single cherry setup. Both returned +50Volts.





Then I moved up the cabinet, tested "Level Re." switch, also received +50Volts.


The "Coin Unit" was next and also gave me +50Volts.




Moved down to the "Handle Release" switch, which gave me +50Volts again.





The "Payout Counter" also returned +50Volts.





Last was the "Hopper Beau" plugs, I received a range of different volts, but there was a couple +50Volts in there.
The hopper has its wires in the back so its difficult to probe, im going to attached gator clips one by one tomorrow and test.
Lol, Im just probing any connection since I don't understand the wire layouts, the schematics lose me.







I turned on the machine and left it on standby, no coins inserted, taking Orange from the coin relay on the door.


Let me know what I missed and what's next.
About the Hopper diode and resister, should I order them now? What are the part numbers for them...
Thank You!

[wolftalk]

you're doing great.  Overkill actually :-)


once you found 50V on red/yellow wire on the reel wiper board, everything upstream of that point all the way to wire 30 was good, so checking the coin relay switch, handle release switch and grey wire 90 wasn't needed.


the furthest you got in the circuit toward the payout relay in your pics was grey/white wire 93-5 on the hopper socket in the cabinet and you got 50V there.  That means the entire path thru the reels and payout counter disc is probably good ... depends whether the hopper was installed when you were checking.


the only thing left is wire 93-5 going from the hopper plug to the payout relay coil.  There's only two things left you can check:


1] wire 93-5 on the payout relay coil to wire 70
2] one probe wire on each of the payout relays coil terminals


there is one gotcha if you were checking voltages in an open circuit.  If some connection is cruddy, you won't see voltage drops because no current is flowing.


if you have the hopper installed and you see something a lot less than 50V on test [2] above, you have a poor connection.  Leave the hopper in, put one probe wire on 70 and the other poke along the entire path you were checking.  At some point the voltage will drop significantly across a connection (switch, wiper contact, plug connection) and that connection will need cleaning.

[Karloz25]

Good News: 93-5 at the Beau Plug to the hopper has +50Volts.




Bad News: When I plugged in the hopper to test the payout counters relays and terminals, the hopper had life on its own (NO CARDBOARD), but there was sparks in the back of the hopper. I quickly unplugged it and inspected the damage. The resister attached to the Capacitor broke.



Can you share with me the diodes / Resisters / model numbers?
I would like to of course replace the one that broke, but I also would like to buy all the resisters and diodes on the hopper and either replace or have just in case.
Hopefully I can find this replacement.
I hate being down several days from testing
The sooner I order, the sooner I continue our path to restore this beauty

[wolftalk]

your resistor blew a chunk out the side?  Doesn't happen often ... usually they burn and break in half.


that relay is the delay relay and everything on it except the coil is on the 120V circuit.  Don't poke around in there with your meter.


the resistor should be 47 ohm, 1 watt ... which is what you have blown up in there
the diode was originally a 1N2070, but you can replace it with a 1N4007


those are the same two parts you need for the hopper cutoff relay, and you probably can't buy just one anyway ... they are so cheap they sell them in packs :-)


when installing the diode, the end with the white band goes toward the coil on both the delay relay and hopper cutoff relay.  The delay relay goes:
   wire 95 -> resistor -> diode -> coil


the hopper cutoff relay goes:
   wire 97 (black/orange) -> diode -> resistor -> coil




the delay relay is also a "something is wrong, panic" device.  If the hopper is running without the payout counter stepping up, the delay relay will shut the game down.  Until you get the parts, just disconnect the resistor (cut the leg where it connects to the switch with grey/white wire 95) and stick paper between the two closed contacts on the relay.  The game won't time out then.


the delay relay is not related to your payout problem.  You need to get your meter on the relay above the delay relay ... that's the payout relay and it needs to power when you have a winner.

[Karloz25]

Is this right? Gonna wait to test the payout delay until you confirm this pic. Lol, I don’t want to start a fire!





I ordered 3 resistors and a 10pack of the diodes, thanks for the info.

[Karloz25]

I tested the payout relay connecting to the grey/ yellow wire, received +50Volts.
Can I probe all the (grey/ 2nd color) wires on the hopper? Or what’s next?

[wolftalk]

is the red/blue wire on the payout relay connected to wire 70 at the hopper cutoff relay socket?

normally the hopper cutoff relay switch makes the connection, but your hopper cutoff relay doesn't work, so you need to tie that red/blue wire to 70 someplace.

if you want a bad explanation of what is going on with the circuits and how to read the schematic, see https://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/readschem/


that site is talking about bingo pinball machines, but bally made those also. The slots are basically the same electrical components, wiring conventions and schematic symbols.

[mark the spark]

I tested the payout relay connecting to the grey/ yellow wire, received +50Volts.
Can I probe all the (grey/ 2nd color) wires on the hopper? Or what’s next?

humour me but if you have 50 volts then is the relay pulled in?

[Karloz25]

humour me but if you have 50 volts then is the relay pulled in?

Sorry, what do you mean pulled in?
The payout relay coil is installed, nothing altered. I tested it on the lug of the coil.

[DavidLee]

When the core of a coil is energized it will pull the armature / small metal plate on to the core.

If the core / plunger is moveable it will be pull into the coil winding. 

[Karloz25]

Sorry, still learning this lingo.
I understand now.
Not sure, that relay is on the back of the hopper, I will have to stick my phone in there with a light and record it to see if it’s coil is pulled down when plugged in.
I still have a single cherry setup at reel 3.


I will test when I get home from work in a couple hours.
Thanks for the help, and understanding.

[Karloz25]

When the core of a coil is energized it will pull the armature / small metal plate on to the core.

If the core / plunger is moveable it will be pull into the coil winding.

I took a video of it powered on, cherry on third reel, connected to a meter, showing +50volts and the coil is NOT pulling the plastic down. 😕

https://youtube.com/shorts/HRwT8Vd_c7w