Bally 800 series Coin problem

[Hiram]

Hi Gents ...about 8 months ago I bought an old Bally at a local sale. It has no ID plate on it but I think it's an 800 series and takes up to 5 Quarters. It had a bunch of Tokens jammed in it and as soon as I took them out , it worked great. I changed a few Bulbs and , we've been enjoying it ..until 3 days ago. When I put a coin in , I can hear a relay in the door click but the lights on top that show the progressive payout for each coin, do not change. The coin falls in the Hopper but the handle will not move. I can keep dropping coins in it and they all go to the Hopper but , none really register. Is there a reset or something I can do to get it to register the coins so we can play it again ? Any advice would be appreciated !!  Thanks

[wolftalk]

looks like an 809 style cabinet, but it has left-right and right-left pay and the payout multiplication is done using an odds follower unit instead of the pinball score reel method ... assuming the stepper unit in the top with the metal ratchet/gear is now an odds follower unit (bally didn't use the older metal ratchet steppers in any of the slots).

in any case, the goal of the first coin is causing the coin relay on the left side of the reel mechanism to trip ... that in turn will trip the handle release relay.

could just be a cruddy connection and pulling out the reels and reinserting will make it work ... if it does, clean the plug pins on the back of the reels.

could also be plug connections between the door and the game or a problem with the coin relay switches.

since the game is a mash-up of pieces, there's no guarantee the wiring follows any bally schematic.  However, people often used the circuits and wire colors from various bally games when changing the games, so your machine may be close to a 952-A if you ignore all the stuff on that schematic related to the progressive jackpot the 952-A had.  Paperwork for various machines can be found on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

take a look at/post a picture of the coin relay.  You particularly care about a switch that has (maybe)  blue/red 21-1 and black/yellow 83 wires on it, with the black/yellow wire going to the coin relay coil. 

could also be a switch on the handle release relay with the other end of the 21-1 wire and blue/yellow 23-2 wire on a center blade.

you can also pull out the reels and manually trip the coin relay, then stuff the reels back in and see if the rest of the gameplay works.

if you have a jumper wire, attach one end to the 21-1 wire on the handle release relay switch and touch the other end to the yellow wire 30 on the coin switch to see if the coin relay trips.  If it does, you can spin to reset the game and attach the jumper to 23-2 and touch 30 to see what happens.

[DavidLee]

Check the coin switch wire as to be sure it operates up and down freely.

Next would be the coin relay switch.
Lightly wipe through the contacts in the latched and unlatched positions.

Also, try moving the hopper and the reels chassis in and out by 1/4 inch.

Do these steps one at a time checking to see if the machine returns to normal.
Thus gaining knowledge on what exactly caused the problem.

Manually resetting the odds unit and payout unit to be sure they have returned completely.

It doesn’t take much of a small flake of grit or grime to keep a machine from operating correctly.

[David Walz]

That really needs some work.

[Hiram]

Hi again ...I pretty much tried everything I could think of , used a plastic shaft and poked, prodded  ...tried unplugging it and wiped contacts , removed the hopper and pushed it back in a few times...did the same for the whole upper unit hoping that would clean the back plug contacts ...still won't work. We have the whole family coming over for Dinner on Sunday and we were really hoping they'd enjoy playing it but , it's not looking good. The machine still won't accept/register any coins going in --Yes , it will take them and they go in the hopper , but it won't credit them and change the payout scale or let you pull the handle . Here's a short video of what it's doing ....if you guys have any suggestions , please let me know ...hopefully it's something simple --   

9

[wolftalk]

- pull out the reels
- look at the left side at the bottom/back edge

that's the coin relay, and it's probably not tripping.  It is mechanically reset during the spin and electrically tripped by the coil.

in case you have insomnia, I put a bad unedited video here:

https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/Coin_Relay.mp4

post highest possible resolution picture of the entire left side of your reels, email to slotpics@cdyn.com or make another video, especially looking at the coin relay when tripping and resetting so we can see the switch behaviour.

[Hiram]

Thanks Wolf !! ..I watched your Video , pulled my reels and found the relays you focused on ..I didn't bend any of them but I tried tripping and resetting them 8 times then slid the reel assembly back in. Plugged it in ..and it WORKED for 5 pulls using 5 coins ..then it stopped taking coins again BUT ,it allowed me to pull the handle without putting any coins in twice ...then , that was it , it stopped working again. So you found the problem area for sure. I'll make a video of it right now so you can see what it's doing

[Hiram]

Hi Wolf ...here's a 2nd Video showing the coin Relay area ...what are the relays above the for ? Could they also be part of the problem ?  Here's the video --

[wolftalk]

the switches above the coin relay could effect the handle release relay tripping, but aren't in the circuit to the coil relay coil ... or they shouldn't be.

when you were depressing the coin switch, you heard clicking in the top compartment.   That is probably the odds reset relay powering, and it means the only thing left in the coin relay circuit is a switch on the coin relay itself and the plug connection to the reels.

the coin relay switch usually has a blue/red (21-1) and black/yellow (83) wire on the blades, and the 83  wire goes to the coin relay coil.  Your switch action looks good, so make sure there's no deep pits on the contacts preventing a good connection.   A quick test is jumper the 21-1 and 83 together ... it's not harmful to leave the jumper on and play the game for a while.  The coin relay coil will just power more than it needs to.

if removing the reels and stuffing them back in makes the game work, then usually it's just cruddy/oxidized pins on the plugs.   Pull the reel and clean off the black stuff on the pins with a scrub pad or wire brush.  You can't easily clean in the sockets unless you have a small round wire brush, but removing the reels and reinserting a few times often scrubs the surfaces well enough.

if you have a long enough jumper wire, you can clip one end on the 21-1 wire on a coin relay switch and the other end on the same 21-1 wire on the handle release relay (above the handle box in right side of cabinet).  That will bypass the plug connection and you can see if it works more reliably.

there's some things on the machine that don't look bally factory.  The main thing to look at is the wires on the coin relay coil that appear to be outside the string-wound harness.  Take a look and see where they are going if they aren't just extra wires going to a meter someplace.

after a spin, the handle release relay and coin relay should be mechanically reset.  When you deposit a coin, the both will trip and the "coin accepted" light should turn on.  If no "coin accepted" light (assuming it works), then yank the reels and verify the coin relay didn't trip.

usually the only thing in the coin relay circuit is the coin switch, a handle release relay switch, the coin relay switch and the coin relay coil ... plus various plug connections.  When having trouble getting the coin relay to power, I usually clip voltmeter probes on orange wire 70 on the coin relay and wire 21-1 on the coin relay switch, then hold down the coin switch and see if you have 50VAC.  If you do, move the probe from 21-1 to 83 on the coin relay switch and repeat.  If you have lower than 50V, the coin relay switch is making a poor connection.

[DavidLee]

At this point checking the coin relay contacts for continuity would be recommended. see photo
Second would be to clean the horizontal B switch between the vertical switches A and C.
Left side of the reels.

Also, to cycle the machine pull the stop lever forward. see photo
This won’t accomplish much except to see if the mechanics are in working order.
Possibly clear debris from contacts.

This machine appears to be a 1090.

[wolftalk]

This machine appears to be a 1090.

wrong cabinet for a 109x game.   The 109x didn't have the chrome around the top compartment, had wide reels and the coin tray didn't span the full width of the cabinet.

maybe a refurb to convert an 809 to 1096 play (1096 is a 5 coin multiplier with right-left and left-right payouts)

[Hiram]

Last night my Brother In Law came over and we both tried ...we removed the Reel assembly and gently cleaned the Coin Relay cluster contacts . Some crud came off but not much. We slid it back in and the game registered 5 coins and played great twice - that was it , then it went stupid again. I'm wondering if I should try a fine sand paper and gently scrub the contacts. I borrowed a multi meter so I can try checking the relays and solder contacts . I also tried the trick releasing the handle and it worked (thanks for that) , the reels all spun (without any coins being added) but it didn't help the problem . I started wondering why/how this might have happened   ...maybe since I don't really know what I'm doing , while removing the reel assembly , my left hand might have pressed against those relays and I bent them by accident ? The game worked for quite a while ..and when it started doing this , if I hit on the front panel under the coin slot , it would start working again. Then it got worse and my hitting it trick stopped working.

[wolftalk]

what happens if you just pull out the reels partway and shove them back in? 

also wiggle the reels mechanism while holding down the coin switch.

be careful with continuity checking ... it's best to measure resistance and look for almost zero ohms vs something higher than a few ohms.  Most meters consider anything under around 40 ohms to have continuity, so paths thru coils, lamps and the transformer can report as continuity when that's not what you intended to measure.

[Hiram]

what happens if you just pull out the reels partway and shove them back in? 
- I tried that a bunch of times and it didn't make a difference

also wiggle the reels mechanism while holding down the coin switch.

- I'll try that next , didn't think of it ..thanks

be careful with continuity checking ... it's best to measure resistance and look for almost zero ohms vs something higher than a few ohms.  Most meters consider anything under around 40 ohms to have continuity, so paths thru coils, lamps and the transformer can report as continuity when that's not what you intended to measure.
OK ...thanks

[wolftalk]

one other gotcha with continuity or measuring resistance is it may look ok because the amount of current the meter injects is tiny and a poor connection will work. 

however, when a large current needs to pass thru, a poor connection will limit the current (it will act like a resistor and there will be a voltage drop), so the thing won't work.

the best test techniques are either using a jumper wire to bypass stuff or using a voltmeter when the circuit is closed (current should be flowing and the load should be doing it's thing ... where load = coil, lamp, motor, etc.).  In a closed circuit, you should see the full fused voltage (6VAC on lamps, 50VAC or 120VAC on the coils) on the terminals of the load.  If you see less, then something in the circuit path is dropping voltage and limiting current.
 
one way to do jumper testing is connect yellow wire 30 to points in a coil circuit and see if the coil fires.  You need a schematic tho to tell where to touch the jumper unless you are just touching a coil wire that is not orange wire 70.  i.e. most of the 50V coils have one lug connected to wire 70 and the game circuits is connecting the other lug to wire 30 ... eventually.

there's a 50V jumper testing video in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/ that may help, tho in your case you want to be jumping wire 30 to wires mentioned in a previous post (83 and 21-1) on coin relay switches.

[Hiram]

one other gotcha with continuity or measuring resistance is it may look ok because the amount of current the meter injects is tiny and a poor connection will work. 

however, when a large current needs to pass thru, a poor connection will limit the current (it will act like a resistor and there will be a voltage drop), so the thing won't work.

the best test techniques are either using a jumper wire to bypass stuff or using a voltmeter when the circuit is closed (current should be flowing and the load should be doing it's thing ... where load = coil, lamp, motor, etc.).  In a closed circuit, you should see the full fused voltage (6VAC on lamps, 50VAC or 120VAC on the coils) on the terminals of the load.  If you see less, then something in the circuit path is dropping voltage and limiting current.

I'm not a tech at all and have no idea how to really use a multimeter so , this sounds like I'm in for a fast "education" ..and possibly getting zapped a few times as well ...but , I'll try my best. I can't dig into it right now since everyone is sleeping but , I'll try tomorrow. I really appreciate all the advice from you and everyone. I'll let you know what happens

[DavidLee]

Watch a video on you tube on how to check continuity.
Continuity can be checked with the machine off.

Did you clean the horizontal switches.

Clean with denatured alcohol and a piece/strip of a business card.
Would not use sandpaper less than 600 grit.
Wipe clean with denatured alcohol with card stock or q-tip

The coin relay may not be latching, cycle the machine and see if it latches.
When dropping a coin in the un-latching can be easily heard with the door open.
Best to gently use the coin wire switch inside the machine.
As coins might bypass and drop right into the tray.

Banging on the machine is an indication of a poor wire connection or dirty contacts.
In your case it could be in the area of the coin mechanism.
Post a few well lighted pictures of the coin mechanism, coin switch trip wire area and inner part of the door.

The next area would be the handle release latch switch and contacts