Bally 831 - Hopper motor runs with every pull

[DBreneman]

This is my first post so I hope this isn't a FAQ, but I couldn't find this problem in looking through the old posts.  I have a lot of experience with pinballs and jukeboxes, but this is my first slot machine, and the lack of visibility of the components in the cabinet is frustrating.

Every time you pull the handle, either by inserting a coin or releasing the catch manually, the coin hopper motor starts to run, and will continue to do so until it pays out roughly 54-58 coins, most often 56. I can see the payout counter activator lever moving with each coin, but like I said, the motor starts running immediately each time the handle is pulled, not as the result of a winning combination.  But it's hard to know what's happening because most of the components aren't visible in the cabinet.  Any pointers would be appreciated!

And, yes, I have the manual.  ("Manual No. 2400" reprint.)

[rokgpsman]

Something may be incorrectly activating the hopper to run and it does so until the Payout Safety Timer stops the payout after a preset time delay of so many seconds. That could be why you always get about the same number of coins dispensed. That time delay can be set from 15 to 45 seconds depending on the coin used by the machine.

(wish I'd find a machine doing this at the casino)   

[buybestslots]

on the old em's  there  a relay that pull in to run the hopper so coins won,t jam after a lot of plays  and no wins to keep coins mixed up so they won't jam, but also the coin diverter should prevent those  coins from  riding the knife to payout tray  did it ever work?

[rokgpsman]

on the old em's  there  a relay that pull in to run the hopper so coins won,t jam after a lot of plays  and no wins to keep coins mixed up so they won't jam, but also the coin diverter should prevent those  coins from  riding the knife to payout tray  did it ever work?

That sounds like this Hopper Mixer Relay mentioned in the Bally EM manual. Not sure what or when it gets activated.

[buybestslots]

that would be the  name of relay

[Amechanic]

Check the contacts on the back side of the hopper to make sure none of the contacts are stuck together.. You will also find more relays and contacts inside the top box. With your door open lift off the top glass and chrome bezel. Your feature unit is in there. Pull out the feature unit and check the relay contact in there too.
When your machine stops paying, does it trip the safety timer, and the machine go dark??

Gary

[DBreneman]

Thanks for the suggestions.  I'll check those things tomorrow.  The machine does *not* go dark after the motor stops running, so it may be the diverter that is my problem.  This machine sat for 15 years in a friend's basement and "It worked at the time" (how many times have you heard THAT?) so I'm assuming that there are no major component failures, just neglect.

[buybestslots]

nothing you can't fix on a em slot or pinball if you have the time

[DBreneman]

I couldn't wait until tomorrow. :-)  I'd thought that perhaps the diverter might be stuck in the retracted position.  But as it turns out, the diverter is extended when the mechanism is at rest.  As soon as the hopper motor starts to run, the diverter retracts.  After the 56 or so coins are paid out, and the motor stops, the diverter extends again.  Hmmm...

[Amechanic]

Your coin diverter is controlled by a switch on the hopper. Earlier unit like found in the 742 thru the 800 series have a plastic ball on a shaft that spins. It's hovering over the coin bowl, when the hopper fills up, it raises up and closes a switch. On the later models it has a cherry switch on the bottom front of the hopper. It would close when the hopper fills to its max amount of coin, then they went into a bucket in the stand.

I would check for a possible grounded wire causing your problem. I had a similar problem years ago, but my hopper would run every time the reels would spin, and quit when the reels stopped. Paid 18 coins every time.. I finally found a wire on my hoppers cabinets beau plug pinched between the mounting bracket and the flange on the plug.. It never blew a fuse, but once I repaired that wire, that machines worked great!!

I would also check around for any loose coins that could be causing your problem. Be carefull if you reach in around the safety timer (back left corner), that has 110V back there... I learned the hard way 

[DBreneman]

Well, I discovered three interesting things today. 

1) If I reset the hopper payout unit manually by pushing in the reset solenoid, then plug the machine in, it will pay out 25-30 coins immediately. 

2) If I hold the clock fan/governor so it can't spin, the machine will pay out indefinitely.  And, #3...

3) It always pays out until about the time that the fan/governor stops spinning, even though that is several seconds past the time that the reel unit is doing any useful work.

I'd like to thank everyone here for their help so far.  I've been reading a lot in the Geddes-Mead book today and am hoping that some time this week (no time to work on it again until next weekend) I
ll have a Eureka! moment that ties all these observations together.  :-)

[DBreneman]

Oh, and  Amechanic, I may be using the wrong terminology, and I apologize for that.  The "diverter" I'm referring to is the one in the hopper unit that extends to knock coins back into the hopper if the motor costs past its shutoff point, not the diverter in the door that directs coins to the coin box if the hopper is full.  Sorry for the confusion.

[rokgpsman]

Oh, and  Amechanic, I may be using the wrong terminology, and I apologize for that.  The "diverter" I'm referring to is the one in the hopper unit that extends to knock coins back into the hopper if the motor costs past its shutoff point, not the diverter in the door that directs coins to the coin box if the hopper is full.  Sorry for the confusion.

That part in the hopper that knocks coins back into the hopper may be what is called the "coin kicker"?

[Amechanic]

ok... Lets see what we can figure out.. It's sounding more like you need to do an oiling of all your reels linkages and you clock assembly. If everything is sticky and moving slow, you could be holding a switch too long and delaying signals to the hopper. The Bally EM has switches that have to open and close at the right time.. So take some time and clean and oil your machine..

[OldReno]

Can't post for some reason...
Check yoour reel mech A and C switches.  They kill pays during handle pull, otherwise you could drain the hopper as the reel wipers arms fell back during handle cock.

[OldReno]

The coin kicker is responsible for knocking off that extra coin that sometimes fell out because of the hopper pinwheel's inertia.  Later versions use the hopper motor brake that attaches to the hopper motor armature.  Same thing, prevents one or two coin overpays.

[The Fatman]

I had an issue like that with one of my machines. After searching and tracing wires, I found that the switch that opens after the payout has been made that stops the power to the motor, was making contact a little bit longer than needed. It is located in the switch stack at the rear of the hopper I guess would be called the payout relay. I adjusted that switch so when the relay releases, the contact for the motor is broken before the relay opens up all the way. My motor was staying energized longer and would alow the coins to advance past the kicker arm and sometimes come out but most of the time, it would get stuck under the roller keepiing the spiral from resetting. Dont know if this is your answer but I wanted to throw it out there because I havnt had that problem since.
Dave F

[DBreneman]

Here's what I've discovered so far.  I've eliminated the A switch, because its function is to prevent the hopper motor from running during wind-up, and the motor does not ever run during wind-up.  I then turned my attention to the C switch, which is supposed to prevent the hopper motor from running until all the reels are indexed.  The C switch, however, opens and closes as it should during the cycle.  It opens during wind-up, and closes after the third reel is indexed.  However, the hopper motor starts immediately upon kickoff.

The problem seems to be centered around the payout counter combined with the second reel.  If I stop the clock at any point before the second reel indexes, the hopper motor will run continuously until the safety timer shuts it off.  However, if I stop the clock right after the second reel indexes (and before the third reel indexes) the machine dispenses the typical (approximately) 56 coins and stops, which is what it does if I don't interfere with the clock at all.

If I manually depress the payout counter reset solenoid, then power up the machine, it will immediately pay out 42 coins.  So the extra approximately 14 coins that are paid out when the machine cycles appear to be a function of the time that passes between kickoff, which resets the payout counter, and the indexing of the second reel, which starts the 42-coin "countdown."

[DavidLee]

Had a problem similar, machine over paid until safety time kicked in. The upper coil on the back of the hopper was missing a spring. I've temporally used a rubber band for testing and it solved the problem.
In your case, possibly one of  the pay out wipers may be stuck on a payout and the combination of a missing spring or relay out of adjustment might cause the hopper to run every time. I'll be curious to know how you solved this problem. Also when looking in problem areas check the wiring, I found two wires hanging on by one strand and another just resting on the solder lug.
Good luck.

[DBreneman]

The payout counter advances and resets fine, and none of the wipers appear to be out of adjustment.  But it's definitely part of the problem, since the motor starts running as soon as it resets.  I guess I need to figure out how the hopper motor is getting power even with the C switch open.  It may have something to do with the stirring action (which also involves the 2nd or "B" reel), but so far I haven't found the reference to that in either the manual or the Geddes/Mead book, both of which would benefit greatly from the inclusion of an index.