Author Topic: Need help bringing an EM Bally 831-ZF back from the dead (Read 30384 times)

clk71 · « **Reply #40 on:** June 15, 2015, 08:35:21 AM »

My mistake

Amechanic · « **Reply #41 on:** June 15, 2015, 08:47:11 AM »

Glad to see you got the feature unit out.. Those plugs can be stubborn to come apart. I like the spray mine with WD40.. You are going to want to make sure the male plugs clean.. I would inspect the operation of all your relays, and make sure the contacts are opening and closing. That goes for the ones on the hopper and reels.

OldReno · « **Reply #42 on:** June 15, 2015, 12:27:49 PM »

Have you followed out this link yet on checking for shorts?
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?PHPSESSID=50c4af44b4f070f7eb2b0c8a7c93675d&topic=17559.0

clk71 · « **Reply #43 on:** June 15, 2015, 12:35:53 PM »

Hi OldReno,

Thanks for all the info you have posted on here, it has been a great help.

I tried the procedure you listed when I first started trying to figure it out. I actually did find a door bulb shorting to the case at one point after my cleaning moved it a little from where it originally was. I will go through the whole procedure again now that I am a little more familiar with the game.

It appears that the short seems to happen only when the hopper is in the middle of running. It is too bad the 6 foot beau plug extensions on ebay are $175, else I could hook them up and know for sure if I am shorting to the case somewhere.

Do you know of any relay that might be directing the bell to go off as soon as a coin is deposited, and that shuts the bell off as soon as the handle is pulled? I can't find mention of the bell in the EM book.

Chris

clk71 · « **Reply #44 on:** June 16, 2015, 07:30:18 AM »

No new news on the short front. Did the OldReno tests again and everything seems fine. With the ohmmeter, two of the door test points came up o.f, one came up 32M ohms. I pulled the units out and will start checking them over. I did notice that a relay on the bottom front of the hopper had a blade bent down a lot... I will straighten it up a bit. Maybe vibration from the hopper during payouts was causing that relay to act screwy. That is tonight's project.

Some bad news... The belly glass that Roslyn though she had is black, not blue. Now that everyone has told me how tacky my pink belly is I will have to find the correct replacement

. I found this one on ebay... Is it the right one for my game, and is the price robbery?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201362436038?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Thanks!

Amechanic · « **Reply #45 on:** June 16, 2015, 08:23:37 AM »

There is two ways to look at that glass.. One yes it's a little on the expensive end, but two trying to find vintage glass in nice condition it getting tough, and they are going up in price. I looked at those on EBay yesterday, and they look almost flawless. If you look at the picture of the back, it has maybe one or two small chips in the silver. I think you would be hard pressed to find a vintage Belly glass in much better shape. The seller did have two of those for sale, you could wait to see if they sell, they might relist at a lower price, but then you take a chance it sells, and is gone.

Gary

clk71 · « **Reply #46 on:** June 16, 2015, 09:28:31 AM »

I bought it. I hope it is the correct one for my game, can someone confirm that?

At least it was less than I paid for the machine. By $.50

Amechanic · « **Reply #47 on:** June 16, 2015, 10:45:53 AM »

It should be, but they do come in different sizes. I don't remember seeing dementions in the ad. I'd measure yours then double check with the seller on size. I'm sure if its not correct they should work with you.

clk71 · « **Reply #48 on:** June 17, 2015, 07:35:58 AM »

UPDATE! PROGRESS! (Sort of...)

Went home from work last night determined to find my short. The OldReno door short tests again came up with nothing so I pulled the modules out and got to work.

The feature unit looked fine. I wiped a little dirt off the step-up coil's plunger and sprayed and wiped-off the male beau plug connector with WD40 per Amechanic's suggestion. Went back in much easier!

Looked over the hopper unit. Adjusted the top switch on the delay relay circuit right at the bottom front of the hopper assembly to make sure it wasn't accidentally making contact during hopper operations. Rest of the hopper looked OK.

Looked over the reel assembly. Checked the reel spin and noticed reel#1 was rubbing in one spot. Straightened it out. Wiper arms looked good. Switches looked good. Was all set to slide it back in when I noticed a big problem... ONE OF THE MALE BEAU PLUG PINS WAS BENT OVER!!!! Could this be the problem?

It must have bent during the module insertion by the previous owner, and then got bent over more when the lock levers were used to lock the assembly in place. I don't know how I missed this, but perhaps it is understandable when I have been pulling the unit out and putting it on the work table, looking at the front, top, left and right sides. With great excitement, I straightened out the pin and put the unit back in. I though for sure my troubles were at an end!

When I turned the game on, I was excited to see the coin in, line lighting, and reel spins all worked like they were supposed to. The bell ringing at coin insertion was gone!!!! That must have been caused by the bent over pin. The the game wants to play like it is supposed to so bad, but there are still a couple problems.

#1) I blew the 120v fuse a couple times. I also noticed that at one point the flourescent marquee bulb was flickering with handle pull vibration, but this has been an intermittent condition. There are two ballasts([big]NOT SURE WHY, ANY IDEAS?[/big]) mounted on the inside left wall where the reel unit slides in, and I think these power just the one marquee bulb up top. The wire insulation seems a little brittle on these, so hopefully I just need to replace the ballasts with ones with newer plastic insulated wire. Looking at the ballast on my coin door, I see that one had been replaced at some point already judging by the newer wire. I also noticed that one of the bulb holders (the part the two bulb prongs turns in to) for the marquee light has a chunk of its encasing plastic cracked off. It appeared still functional, but should probably be replaced. [big]Any idea where to find these? [/big]

#2) Here are the big problems. Still blowing the 50v fuse when the hopper goes to pay. Seems like two different things going on here.

I can add coins and spin reels, but every once in a while the hopper would seem to go off after only the first reel stopped spinning. This would happen when there was no symbol showing on the reel (blank). This was intermittent... could happen after 2 pulls or after 20 pulls. I am not sure what would cause this. Don't all the reels have to be stopped to open a payout circuit to get the hopper going?

The 2nd problem is that the hopper is sticking up somehow. Here are the symptoms. It starts going, and then after spitting out a small number of coins it seems to jam up? Fuse blows. When I pull it out to look, every time it appears that there is a coin wedged up under the pivot arm assembly next to the coin fence, almost as if it got stuck. I am not sure if this is normal operation. Do hoppers jam up at that point by the guide fence/coin kick out assembly/pivot arm and blow fuses? This happens when the game tries doing one of those mystery payouts (see the first part of problem #2 above), and when a legit payout circuit is in order. At this point, with the fuse blown, if I do the OldReno short checks with case ground and the three test points in the door, they all come back with resistance indicating a shorts. I buy the 50v short showing, but the light bulb circuit too? Weird.

On a positive note, while running coins through to test it game out, I did hit a bar-bar-bar combo, and the bell started ringing and the boarder lights on the feature unit started to go off. It looked impressive for about 2 seconds, then blew the fuse after spitting out only four coins.

Thanks everyone for your continued help! We are so close, I just know it!!!

Amechanic · « **Reply #49 on:** June 17, 2015, 08:27:58 AM »

You might want to go thru your hoppers adjustments. Make sure that the hoppers coin wheels spinning free with no binding. Your hoppers gearbox could be your problem. They have grease in them, but after 40+ years it could be hardening up. I know some hopper gearboxes have a oil hole, as do the motors shafts.
Can you spin the motor shaft and turn the coin wheel? One of my first Bally E-Series had a seized up and was blowing fuses. You can bench test your hoppers motor, it is 110v. If it was a E-Series hopper you would have to disconnect and remove the hoppers curcuit board before testing the motor, to keep from damaging the curcuit board..
You mentioned random pays after reel 1.. I would check the location of your wiper fingers to the contacts to make sure the wiper is only contacting one contact at a time and not bridging two contacts. Your largest payout is usually the deepest cut on the indexing cams.

Keep us posted.

clk71 · « **Reply #50 on:** June 17, 2015, 09:04:24 AM »

My hopper disc turns, but not easily/loosely. It takes a little bit of force. So that will be tonight's project. I have had the ring and scoop assembly off to clean it out and wipe off the disc, and will now go further.

Can you give me 2 pieces of advice?

What is the correct order for taking the hopper apart? It looked like I would have to get the paywheel assembly out of the way to get a wrench on the bottom of the main hopper shaft to get the coin disc assembly out of the casing... Do I also crack open the motor gearboxes to get at those shafts?

What oil/grease do I need to use on the hopper gears and on the motor shafts?

Thanks!

Amechanic · « **Reply #51 on:** June 17, 2015, 10:10:10 AM »

I start by removing the hopper bowl, screws, spring. Then the knife and other bolted or screwed on items. As for getting the coin wheel off I think it's just held in place but the center nut.
I like a product called zoom spout for oiling. It's a plastic bottle with a long tube you pull out if the bottle. You can reach deep into hard to reach places. I buy it in my local hardware store. I've even dripped it in the shaft of the gearbox and hand turned the hopper till it goes into the gearbox. The screw on the right side of the hopper bowl is an escentric used to adjust the gap between the coin wheel and bowl. Too tight it causes a bind, too loose you can get coins jammed. This is all covered in the manual under hoppers.

OldReno · « **Reply #52 on:** June 17, 2015, 02:33:53 PM »

Excellent advice from Amechanic.
You can test your hopper motor with two jumpers clipped onto the motor itself and plug in to 120V.
Let it run and look to see if it slows down or binds. Then find why and fix it.
If the hopper bearings are too tight that can have impact.
You're getting closer........

clk71 · « **Reply #53 on:** June 18, 2015, 11:35:10 AM »

Dumb question, probably, but better safe than sorry. These are the two hopper motor wires, right? I have a cut extension cord I've put alligator leads on so I can clip them on and plug it in.

And the gear box is accessible after I remove the coin disc, right?

Thanks!

Paul · « **Reply #54 on:** June 18, 2015, 11:41:36 AM »

Yes the two wires are the place to hook up the power
The gear box is the box that the motor is attached to.

clk71 · « **Reply #55 on:** June 22, 2015, 06:52:22 AM »

PROJECT UPDATE

The belly glass showed up and fits like a glove. Looks like a completely different machine now, the blue is opaque so the only light coming through is through the red Bally logo. Looks great. I thought a prior owner had replaced the transformer at some point for the belly light. Turns out they changed the whole lighting arrangement in there. No bulb anymore, just two neat flat LED setups. I attached a picture, maybe this is a good alternative for those who don't like the original set up. This fuse thing has got me so irritated I was considering shelving this project, but seeing how good the machine looks now has me in till the hopefully-not bitter end.

Regarding the fuse blowing, no progress.

I took the hopper out, cleaned and lubed up the pivot arm assembly and step up arm. For lube I used gun oil. I also dripped a little gun oil into the motor shaft while hand turning it. I used an extension cord I accidentally cut in half this winter, an electrical switch I mounted in a handy box, and two alligator clips to make a switch on/off-able power supply for the motor and ran it to check for smooth operation of the hopper. I made one small adjustment to the coin fence. I ran hundreds of coins through the hopper to check for smooth operation and everything worked great.

I put the hopper back in, hoped for the best. The reels were set on bar - bar - bar from the last spin, so when I turned it on it immediately started trying to pay out. Got through 4 coins this time then blew a fuse. I had to buy more fuses last night so I will take the reels off a payout combination and see what happens. I did notice two things when cleaning up the hopper, maybe you guys can enlighten me.

1) The vertical reset pawl switch in the bottom of the hopper assembly, behind the payout circuit disk (On page 110, part #44) says it is supposed to be normally closed. When the reset pawl is actuated, it doesn't look like the switch is opening. It also looks a little bent, almost as if someone wanted it to stay closed all the time... I can't see how it would have been accidentally bent given where it is tucked away. Is this switch being closed all the time a bad thing? See pictures.

2) On page 108, the pivot arm assembly is showing having a torsion spring on the part diagram (#57). I don't have this spring. My switch assembly also looks different. I will send a picture of the set up later. Any source for the spring and switch assembly if I need to find them?

Thanks for the help!

DavidLee · « **Reply #56 on:** June 22, 2015, 09:56:21 AM »

Sounds like your making progress on the machine.
With the machine on, in a none paying reel set up and the hopper out. What happens when you re-install the hopper, does it blow the fuse?
Or does the fuse blow during a payout?
Would like to see how the belly glass looks lit up. Please attach photo when you have a chance.

Amechanic · « **Reply #57 on:** June 22, 2015, 10:42:58 AM »

I was wondering, but I don't think it's the problem. You hopper is 110v as is your lighting. Can you make sure you belly light are wired correct. Did they unhook the ballast used for the florescent bulb? Is it the 110V fuse you keep blowing or another, 5V, 50V? I have a thought.. Try running your machine in the dark and try to see if you can see a flash where your short might be. If you don't have extention cables, you can remove the screws holding your feature units front wood and lights. Lay it forward to see inside. Hopefully by doing this you can locate the problem.
I would also double check to make sure any plastic insulators are covering the leads.
The hopper contact you pictured, if I remember right should open up when the solenoid fires to return the hopper back to zero..

Keep us posted..

OldReno · « **Reply #58 on:** June 22, 2015, 04:42:27 PM »

Your pawl switch (above) is most probably running the winner paid light.
Put a piece of paper or matchbook in between and see how that effects it.

OldReno · « **Reply #59 on:** June 22, 2015, 05:10:32 PM »

OK, sounds like a hopper short of some kind, but I've been very wrong before, so no biggie.
With your voltOhmMeter, on Ohms, clip one lead onto a good metal part of your hopper (hopper out of machine, yes.)
Then with the other lead, check each and every hopper switch. You should have NO readings on any of the switches.
Inspect each switch carefully, actuate it, and look to see that No switch touches a leaf that it should not be touching, and that no switch ever touches to case.
I suspect your payout relay has a switch that is either touching case when it is energised, or touching another switch that it should not be.
Sometimes the paper insulators that were put between switches and or case get torn or missing, and then you have the switch touching something it should not be touching.
Remember, there are NO connections to ground in the Bally. All switches should be isolated from case.
Sometimes people put in a wire onto the coin lockout coil going to case to intentionally put in half a short in case someone drilled the machine and tried to cheat it.
If you find one, a wire screwed to case behind the coin acceptor, remove it.
Please find this problem, your killing me....
(kidding)

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Author Topic: Need help bringing an EM Bally 831-ZF back from the dead (Read 30384 times)