Bally 1090 coin lock out d-energizing

[OldReno]

Using these 7 switches, we could, in theory, deduce just what is wrong by checking lockout at varying stages of the full game cycle.  BUT, it would take a lot of effort.  IOW, we can fix it without touching it by setting up 'conditions' and dealing logically with a schematic.  If there is interest we can do this...
Or not.

[DavidLee]

Mr. Reno

It would take some doing over the internet to go step by step.
Already appreciate all that you have done and its been a big help.
Like I said I traced from the Lockout Coil back and found the open on the coin relay switch.
This morning I hooked up a remote so I could short the contacts related to the coin lockout via wire 31.
Lockout worked like it should IF you just play TWO coins. The 3rd coin OPENS the circuit at the ODDS UNIT, thus the lock out coil looses power. Stands to reason after the 3rd the coin ,but leaves the machine in a non operational mode for the next game because it's not retracting.
Which leads me to believe this circuit is a series of switches in its present state. You mentioned this to be a parallel circuit and I believe it should
be, but haven't checked the book yet.

Compared the coin relay switch on the 1088 concerning these particular set of contacts and they are located in the middle of the stack causing them to be closed. Not like the ones on the 1096 which are the first set as seen in the photo.

Attached drawing from what I traced through out the machine. Pretty sure I followed every lead.
Nothing took me to the DASH POT or a RESET SWITCH.

I'll stay on it at this end, if you come up with something or idea let me know.
Eventually I'll get this right one way or another. Its these little challenges that keeps me going and makes it a fun hobby.
 
Thanks again for your help.   

[OldReno]

coin lockout coil
If you look on page 16 of your free Bally EM Manual, you will see that the top schematic includes some coin lockout coil circuitry.
The very bottom line represents the 50V source (70 wire -- orange).
The top line is the return or common wire (30 yellow)
When a coil can complete a circuit through all its switches back to the 30 wire, then the coil turns on.
Now, let's follow the circuit for the coin lockout coil from the coil itself --
First, there is a circuit through a resistor from 70 to 30, which is not quite enough electrons to turn on the coil, so forget that route.  Consider the resister as kind of a heater, that will allow the lockout coil to turn on better and faster when all the proper switches of the rest of the circuit are closed.
The only route left to the 30 wire then is through one of the 3 routes you see
1. the super jackpot relay switch (In our case we will call this the jackpot reset key switch, which you indicated you don't have.)  This switch on YOUR schematic should be labeled as normally open (NO), and you only need it to play off jackpots by re=energising the coin lockout coil so the customer can insert a coin to play off JP.
2 Next to that is called the top jp reel reset relay sw on the schematic, but in your case call it the Jackpot Lockup relay #1 switch)  this switch in your case should be normally closed (NC) and only opens when there is a jackpot, and you don't want customer to accidentally play the machine until he is attendant paid. The JPLU#1 does that job.
3. On some machines with different circuits to make large pays, there is a 2nd jackpot relay.  (e.g. a jackpot of 1000 coins from 3 triple bars is different that one of 3 double bars paying 500 coins...)  But don't worry about that right now, these two are generally in series.
You will note that there is more than one way to get to the 30 wire here, either through the reset key switch or through one of the two JP switches.  So, this is called a parallel circuit.

After we leave all this we come to another two switches in parallel, the coin relay switch, and the open at max odds switch, or lineodds open at 2/4 step switch (which I have NEVER heard it called.  Now the coin relay switch is normally closed, but when you insert first coin the coin relay trips, and that switch opens and stays open until you pull the handle and cycle the machine.  Works great for a single coin machine, but you cannot put in a second coin, ever, until you pull handle and re-close that switch. (IF that is the only pathway)  So, to be able to play more than just one coin, Bally put in the other switch, or the open at max odds switch.  This allows you to insert 2, or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 coins, however the physical white gear on your odds disc is set up.  some machines open that switch after 3 coin, some after 5th coin.  So you see how they allow for multiple coins to be played.
Now, if the coin relay switch (NC) is broken, and unable to ever close, then you could still play (on a 5 coin machine) 1 coin, or two or three or four coins, and you could do this indefinitely.  HOWEVER, if you ever play 5 coins (max coins), then you would never be able to put another coin in (again, this is if the coin relay switch, the other part of the parallel circuit is broken, and the Max odds switch is also open -- there is no path).

All the rest of the switches in the circuit back to the 30 wire are in series.
I hope that gave you something to chew on.
Most all Bally machines use this very same type of circuit to run the lockout coil. The names may vary, the wire colors may or not change, but they are all wired just about identically....
I appreciate your schematic drawing, and if you can in the future remember the method of trying to get from your coil and source, back up to the 30 wire (generally through the coin in switch you will note), then your drawings will make a lot more sense to you.
Good luck, nice work so far.

[DavidLee]

Thanks for the reply about the lockout coil circuit, I'll print it out and use it.
Won't have to much time to spend on the machine, have a lot scheduled for the next 5 days.
We are both fully aware of the problem, but let me reiterate again as I might see the situation from another angle.
  It's after the handle is pulled just enough to activate the c switch.
The coil becomes energized until the very end of the cycle then it releases. Thus preventing the first coin to register. Simple solution find the cause and reverse the action, at least it sounds good in theory.
Maybe I'll attempt another video and be a little more precise with what's going on and a little less Hollywood production.
Well thanks again for the help.
Have good weekend.


Dave

[OldReno]

What is your insert coin light doing during all this?
Pretty sure this has been a dollar machine mod.
What is the loose 31 wire gong to on your photo of door?

[DavidLee]

The insert coin light works as it should. On before the first coin and off as the handle is pulled.
After the 3rd coin sometimes it will go off, but stays on most of the time, until the handle is pulled.
Think I need to adjust a set of contacts on the odds unit for it to go out after the last coin.


Thought about linking the insert coin light to the lock out coil with a 6 volt relay. As to use the 6 volt relay for a switch. But the only problem it would hold the lockout coil after the last coin. So I would have to come up with another circuit to d-energize the lockout coil.


But first I'm going see if I can reverse the action of the lockout coil when needed.
Probably go over the circuit a few more times.


Thanks for the ideas
Dave

[DavidLee]

Okay, I'm back with some good and bad news.  The bad news is, I abandoned the original Bally circuit to the Lock Out Coil and installed a modern circuit of my own. The good news is, I have the lock out coil working as it should. Thanks to my brother who has a better understanding of electronic components and how they work.

Used the insert coin light as the switch and a Solid State Relay to control the Lock Out Coil.
Using all salvaged parts, Diodes to convert the 6 volt AC to 3 volts DC, Capacitor to smooth the cycle and 550 ohm resistor to drain the capacitor.
Lock Out Coil works as expected with no noticeable dimming to the Insert Coin Light.

Thanks to all who helped along the way and a special thanks to Mr. OldReno

Maybe one day I will solve the mystery of the backward working Lock Out Coil,
but it was great learning experience.

[OldReno]

Well done.
I would have put a 50V relay in line with the lockout, and then used the N .C. switches to power the lockout direct.
But yours looks like it works fine.
 Nice.