809 Feature Unit

[rdaniel]

Just a question since both machines work well. I have two 809 T Bar slots. One has a counter unit on the right side of the feature unit and the other does not. Please refer to the photos. Can anyone explain to me why the counter unit is in one feature unit and not the other, considering that both machines are the same type.


 

[The Fatman]

I am thinking that the actual numbers have no meaning, unless they are put back on a Pinball Machine. As long as they advance and make contact correctly, thats all the machine cares about. Now ..... Oldreno can chime in on this with the exact reason. I can easily be educated by him, and usually am.
Dave F

[rokgpsman]

Just a question since both machines work well. I have two 809 T Bar slots. One has a counter unit on the right side of the feature unit and the other does not. Please refer to the photos. Can anyone explain to me why the counter unit is in one feature unit and not the other, considering that both machines are the same type.

Just a guess, but it may be due to something like this-
Maybe the counter unit was for keeping track of credits. Seems like I heard that in some jurisdictions a slot machine was allowed to store credits for the player to play off when he wanted, but in other jurisdictions credit play was not allowed. So machines in that jurisdiction would not have the credit assembly or feature installed. Slot companies made their machines for many different places, even international locations, and had to obey the local gaming laws.


Unrelated info on how different jurisdictions can have differing rules that slot machine companies have to deal with:

For a while in Missouri casinos the slot machines were made so they would not accept real coins, only paper money. And even then the paper money would not be accepted unless you had a players card inserted. That was so the machine could check to see how much you had already gambled in a given 4 hours of play. The state law limited your action to no more than a certain amount ($2000??, can't remember) per 4 hour period. When you reached that limit you had to wait until your next 4 hour period before you could play again. Also, the casinos were on the river and to enter them you first had to present a player's card at a podium to get a "boarding pass" for the riverboat. Then a few feet further you handed your boarding pass to someone at the actual casino door. This started a timer on your visit, after 4 hours you had to exit and re-enter if you wanted to gamble further, even if you hadn't reached the dollar limit you had reached the 4 hour visit limit. Every machine and table dealer would first check your card before letting you play, to ensure you had not been there more than 4 hours and had not gambled more than the 4 hour dollar limit. This was several years ago, my memory about the details isn't exact, but it was such a PITA. All of this was so the state government could protect the helpless public.

[The Fatman]

This is my understanding .... and has been incorrect in the past but. I am thinking the # reels are used to multiply the payout of the coins. Since a great number of 809 machines are JP only machines and the payouts are larger, the # reels advance with the payouts advancing the spiral disk less to accommodate the higher payouts. Less wear and tear on that unit and it can allow the machine to payout mostly without the attendant having to pay the balance. If you have an extension cable, you can unplug the unit from the head and using the extension cable, plug it back into the beau plugs. You can manually set up a high payout and watch the little reels turn and do their thing when it pays out. You can also watch the spiral disk on the hopper and see how it advances in conjunction with the reels.
Once again ... there is a good possibility that there is more to them than that .... others will tell you.
Dave F

[OldReno]

I remember running across those from time to time at the Mapes, and never did get a satisfactory answer to what they did.  I suspect they may be involved in counting either the number of jackpots, or the number of 200/400 coin pays on the machine.  The way to find out is to follow the wire from the step solenoid on the unit, and see where it originates.  If it goes to either of the 2 Jackpot lockup relays, then we can assume it counts JP's.  There was rampant cheating of machines back then, keypeople setting jackpots for friends, so if the unknown unit was to catch that, it certainly wasn't used at least the places I worked at.
BTw you can watch the top unit action if you just remove the 4 screws holding the front light panel on, and carefully drop it down.  This lets you see what's going on, and you can even reach in and activate some of the relays and watch what they do.
So, if anyone REALLY knows what these units did (I'm thinking Op Bell has a good idea about them) please chime in and enlighten us all.  Otherwise, follow out those wires kids....
RDaniel, please do some more pics on that unit and post them so we can have a discussion and discovery....sounds fun.  We can reason it all out.  It has a step up solenoid, does it have a reset one?
@Fatman, the wheels with numbers and not numbers are your X-units.  They do the counting for wins with mulitple coins in played. You have the x2, x3, x4, x5 units.  The X2 is used anytime the payout is a jackpot (400 coins or more or lockup condition)  They are a trip.  they control the hopper payboard step up function when there is more than one coin played.
Craig

[rdaniel]

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the input. Old Reno, I will follow your suggestion and trace the wires. I will also include another photo of the count unit.


R Daniel

[rdaniel]

As suggested by Old Reno, I traced the wire from the step up solenoid on the count unit. One was orange which was not an issue. The other was a 32 wire (I am color blind so bear with me) which connected to a NC limit switch as shown in the first photo. From there the connection, via a 58 wire, eventually ended up at the  hopper payout counter unit as shown in the second photo. This connected to one side of a NO switch.


So I can say that the count unit step up solenoid is somehow controlled by the hopper payout. From here I will need expert assistance.


Thanks


Rdaniel (Richard)

[rdaniel]

I did a second read of my last post and realized that I got my colors wrong. It is a 31 wire from the solenoid not a 32, that is a yellow with a red tracer. My bad.


Rdaniel (Richard)

[OldReno]

Nice work, great photos, thank you!!!
Now, looking at your 1st pic, the unknown unit, I see what appears to be a 60+ step white gear, with 2 stops, one is plastic, the other is a screw through the plastic.  And you have two switches actuated by those two stops.  At reset only 1 of the switches is closed.  After one step of gear, both switches are closed.  At limit (I am guessing from your photo about 45 steps???) then the other switch opens, which I am guessing is tied to the unit reset solenoid and perhaps keeps it from resetting at max???.
Very clever, whatever Bally did.
Now, if you have the ambition, find out where the reset solenoid wire goes.  Also, a pic of the front of the board?
PS, the 31 wire is probably a 2nd re-use, as the 31 most usually goes to power the coin lockout armature on the door behind the coin acceptor you will notice.  Actually it goes all over as I recall, and prolly to the JP lockup coils and maybe even the jp reset key...?Maybe time to load up the manual I think to look at schems...
It might even be some kind of accounting thing for the drop crew?
Superb sleuthing, thank you!!!

[buybestslots]

I am thinking that the actual numbers have no meaning, unless they are put back on a Pinball Machine. As long as they advance and make contact correctly, thats all the machine cares about. Now ..... Oldreno can chime in on this with the exact reason. I can easily be educated by him, and usually am.
Dave F

numbers on reel met nothing they were left overs from old em pin games

[rdaniel]

In a previous post you had mentioned something about the count unit being for counting jackpots possibly. I just remembered that when I got the machine there was a meter in the upper right side of the case which had the word "jackpot" on the front. You could be correct, its entirely possible that's what the count unit was used for.


I will also check the wiring for the reset solenoid to see where it goes.


Rdaniel   Richard   

[rdaniel]

Greetings All,
I took Old Reno’s advice and checked the wiring for the reset solenoid on the counter unit. One side is the orange wire and the other is a black “J” wire which goes to one of the switches as shown circled on the first photo, a 78 wire. From there I followed the 78 wire all the way to the zero switches on the hopper carriage as shown in the second photo.
So it seems that when the B switch closes it sends a pulse to the reset solenoid on the payout unit and the counter unit as well.
I tried several payouts, including single bar jackpot, but the step up solenoid on the counter unit would not advance the ratchet.   Seems to me that perhaps it is for higher payouts then I checked or the unit is not working.  Does not matter though since the machine works well.