Bally EM, 2 Coin over Payment on every payout, except when...

[Amechanic]

I have an interestion problem. I'm working on a Bally EM model 1084 from Dublin.. It has a constant 2 coin over pay on every jackpot paid.. I have gone thru the hopper, zero switch is working correct, contacts and switches are cleaned and adjusted. The wiper board contacts are correct, BUT I still have a two coin over pay?? Now I can make it pay out correctly every time if I take the coin off the reels coin shelve. I take the first 3-4 coin off. Now I have about a 1-2 second delay before the coins go under the roller to be counted, and pays correct every time this is done.. Now if you leave the coins on right up to the payout roll, and hit a jackpot you get 2 extra coins every time?? It doesn't make sense, delay the coins, it pays correct, or you get two extra if they start to pay immediately?? I did run the hopper to test the safety timer, but it never turned off.. The spiral cam is resetting and opening the zero switch after you coin up and pull the handle.. I took a picture of the hoppers coin wheel and shelve, and I think this hopper has 50 cent setup in it.. Someone made a hopper knife to work in it..  I don't think that my problem.. Any ideas??

Thanks Gary

[cowboygames]

Just a goes, but sluggish/sticky switch on the counter maybe?

[Amechanic]

Just a goes, but sluggish/sticky switch on the counter maybe?

This is a EM that's mechanical counting, one coin under the roller advances the 100 tooth gear 1 click. That advances the spiral cam one position on the payout wiper board. That is alway correct even after the two extra coins? It's acts like it has a delay or reset circuit in the first 1-2  seconds that the hopper runs?

[The Fatman]

So it it my understanding that the 100 tooth  gear and the wiper arms are only advancing (10 coin win) 10 places but giving out 2 extra coins? Or does it advance two extra places as well with advancing the wiper arms when it doesnt have your man made delay? Its pretty good that you have discovered what you have too. I am wondering if the coin sitting on top of the knife ( good job on the retro 25 cent upgrade) could be holding the advance levers on the 100 tooth gear too far so when it goes to pay it doesnt actuall know its giving that one out. I know you said it gives out 2 .... but got to start somewhere....Its strange. 
Dave F

[mark the spark]

does your kicker blade that knocks the coins off the wheel not give you the 1-2 coin delay

[Amechanic]

does your kicker blade that knocks the coins off the wheel not give you the 1-2 coin delay

This hopper doesn't have the solenoid operated kick blade.. For some reason, if I leave the coins loaded on in in hopper right up to the roller as pictured I get two extra coins paid on every jackpot. The hoppers wipers are alway in the correct position , be it 2,5,10, or 14 coins. It's like the hopper is receiving a signal to cycle the solenoid that returns the spiral cam and wipers to zero was the hopper is energized. That's erasing my first two coins counted?  Reason I say this is if I only remove two coins and not three off the hoppers disk, I can get a constant one coin over pay??  Now figure that out.. Going to have to get the extension cable out and closely watch the hopper on jackpots paid.

Gary

[mark the spark]

how many coins is the jackpot

[Amechanic]

how many coins is the jackpot

They are the usual payout for a fruit machine. 1 cherry pays 2, two cherrys pays 5, oranges pay 10, plums pay 14, bells pay 18..  I don't know the other symbols payouts since the owner didn't bring the top glass or have I tested them.

[OldReno]

Sounds like your hopper motor brake is slipping.  Or its spring tension might be bad.
You could also adjust your coin out switch to click in early and open late, giving more time for complete payout.
(instead of close at 10 and open at 2, make it 9 and 3 to see if this knocks off at least one of those coins.
Are there any pics for that assembly in our Bally Manual???

[Amechanic]

Ok time to up date.. I wanted to bench test this hopper but can't because I have not made my 30 pin extention cable yet.. I think I might have found the problem... There is almost 2 full coin of play in the hoppers coin wheel and shelve. If I rotate the payout wheel to take the play out before a payout it's counting correct no matter how many coins are on the wheel. If I don't do this I get my two extra coins.. I will totally remove the coin reel and shelve tomorrow to address the play..

Almost for got to say that the brake seems fine, I did manually check it, didn't seem to have any binds, and work correctly.. I guess I could get my jumper power cord out a test the motor and brake..

Gary

[OldReno]

bad motor brake or missing spring may cause that, so if after your work it still happens, give it a look.
Sounds like pinwheel is not locking in when it should.
If your payfingers stop where they should, the reel mech is probably not the problem.

[mark the spark]

I do apologise amechanic I didn`t read the title it overpays 2 on every payout   
see how you get on with removing the coin reel and shelve

[Amechanic]

   Update.. I took the hopper apart this morning, cleaned and check the brake, working correct... I've corrected the pinwheel play too, but I still have my two coin over payments... I did notice something strange happen when I was testing the hopper.. After a jackpot been paid, I noticed that the spiral cam is resetting back to zero as you start to pull the handle.. Normally it doesn't reset to zero until the second reel is stopped and locked and while the third is still spinning.. This hopper is getting two signals to energize the return solenoid during each reels assembly cycle? I advanced the spiral cam again after the first pulse and was able to see the spiral cam return to zero again at its normal time.. I'm not sure what this means or if it's my problem, but at this point I'm now lost and confused    What set of contact keeps this from happening normally? I double checked one of my other EM machines, and they only cycle that solenoid once??   

Gary

[OldReno]

Check your reel mech B switch, that and the hopper zero switch should be the only two switches inline with your payout counter reset coil.
Also make sure your reel mech 'C'stack switches are all ok.  If they close too soon, it can pay before second reel indexes as I recall.

[Amechanic]

Check your reel mech B switch, that and the hopper zero switch should be the only two switches inline with your payout counter reset coil.
Also make sure your reel mech 'C'stack switches are all ok.  If they close too soon, it can pay before second reel indexes as I recall.

You were correct..  The B switch was making contact on the forward stroke as well as the return stroke.. I adjusted them and checked the C switches (seem good).. I installed the reels and played the game for a while, and I'm happy to reports that every jackpot were spot on!!    Donner for the lead and advice.. 

Gary

[CVslots]

Rock on Donner!!!! 


FYI: this man " Donner" aka "Old Reno" has enough knowledge to fill a book or two....so many are just not appreciating it!!! This man is crazy knowledgable about EMs!!!!!! Use it or lose it people!!!


Many thanks to amechanic, of course, but Donner knows this sh*% like the back of his hand!!!!

[OldReno]

Aw shucks...
Thanks guys.  That's what happens when you work a busy floor with lots of machines down...you have to learn quick.
Always will I be glad to share, after all these machines were designed by diabolical clever folks, and they deserve to have this knowledge passed on.
Thanks.