Bally EM Hold Button Operation

[Amechanic]

I could not have said it any better. I have one other question on this machine.. What circuit turns on the option to use the hold buttons? I have noticed that the light for the option doesn't always light to give you the opertunity to use it? I noticed it doesn't light after a jackpot, but it does after a non win, but only about 60-70% of the time? Is that circuit attached to the reels switches or my hoppers? It acts like it has a switch or contact some where that needs adjusting.

[The Fatman]

I dont have that answer, but this I do know. It wont light up after a win because it would enable a player to hold a winning combination and win again and again ect... ect. Might be a switch tied to the payout disk so if there is a payout, it opens,keeping it from lighting. After it resets, is closed again. That is just a guess but OLdReno would know this one I am sure.
Dave F

[Amechanic]

Thanks Fatman.. I had that much figured... I would almost have to think it would be tied into your win meter (what this machine has) and or the winner paid light circuit? The hold comes as the reels spin, so its on the reels assembly some where, but none of my books talks about a machine with the hold option. I have noticed that the hold light goes out as soon as the coins inserted..

Gary

[mark the spark]

amechanic any chance of a pic of this machine the front of it and then one with the door open
really would like to see it

[Amechanic]

amechanic any chance of a pic of this machine the front of it and then one with the door open
really would like to see it

Ask and you shall receive... 

[mark the spark]

might not help but i have an older hold and draw that the hold function is operated by 2 cams
the 50 volt circuit has a contact on the coin in on the door, this drives a 50 volt motor, the motor rotates a different amount each time
the cams are inner and outer, the outer being the hold circuit if it stops on the slot part of the cam you get a hold
the inner cam is the hold after win, this slot in the cam is very small now it has to land in both slots to get a hold after a win
so the hold after win circuit probably goes through the payout circuit (i never chased circuit out fully)
the hold circuit when energised just pulls a relay in to  operate the hold buttons

[Amechanic]

I don't see any motor or cams on the machine.. Just the door buttons, and one lock out solenoid per reel. Then one to unlock all three. This machine is not offering a hold on every non winning play, but from what your explaining that sounds normal.. I notice that the hold light comes on every time the reels spin, but sometimes it goes out when the first reel stops, or after thee second or third. Other times it stays on, a d can be played on a non winning combination. I wish I knew what switches it runs through? The dash pot, a b or c switches?? I wish I could locate a manual...

Gary

[mark the spark]

as a thought  it might pay to chase the red/green wire on the buttons I would think that's the 50v it must come from a relay somewhere?
has the hold function /buttons ever worked?

[Amechanic]

The owner said they did, but I never got them to work correct. The machine was picked up today after the other repairs were made. I was hoping to be able to fix the buttons too. It's a unique setup to see how they were made. Maybe I'll get another chance to work on it again someday.

Gary

[OldReno]

Never did get to work on hold and draws much, but IIRC, you cannot hold after a win...().
If that is the case, then I would suspect that you have an extra switch on the hopper, probably one that is activated by the spiral cam-horseshoe shaped carriage, probably on the back bottom post (of the 3) that hold the carriage on.
In other words, when the switch is closed (or open), the that indicates a payout, and you will not be able to hold the reels until the next handle pull either opens or closes that switch by resetting the hopper payboard..  Look for a long leaf switch somewheres attached to the payboard methinks...
Probably opens during a pay, to kill the hold coils.
post more pics...

[Amechanic]

Sorry can't post any other pics. The owner picked the machine up. The hold option was working about 50% of the time. He was just happy I was able to replace the broken handle gearbox assembly. That was a whole other post. I had never seen a gearbox assemble like the broken one before, and was even sure the normal ones I've worked with were going to work. You can see the pictures and posting here,

http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=2182.0

Gary

[Op-Bell]

I see this thread is over, but for the record, here's how the Bally hold works.

There's a relay at the back of the mech marked "HOLD". When this relay is energized it holds in through its own contact, then through a contact on the win relay and one of the contacts on the left side of the mech to ground. When the machine is coined, the hold solenoids can be operated through their respective hold switches, then through a contact on the hold relay, then one on the coin relay and (I think) a contact on the handle mech to ground, because if you pull the handle forward a little the holds don't work, but if you didn't pull it far enough to catch the ratchet, they work again when you release it.

When you press a hold button the hold solenoid operates. In the fully "in" position it latches mechanically, and a contact breaks the solenoid current so it doesn't get hot and burn out if someone holds the button down. Another contact lights the light on the front glass. It puts a mechanical stop in the way of the reel stop arm so that it can't withdraw all the way from the star wheel. When the mech cycles, toward the end after reel 3 stops, a cam pushes a horizontal sliding bar that releases the mechanical latches and lets the solenoids reset. This bar can also be operated by a solenoid on the "Cancel button.

When you start the game, a contact on the left side of the mech breaks the circuit to the hold relay briefly and drops it out. Then midway through the cycle, another contact closes momentarily and pulls it back in again, but this contact is in series with a contact on each of the hold solenoids, so if any one is pulled in the hold relay won't operate. Thus you can't have two hold games in a row. If you get a winner, when the win relay pulls in it drops out the hold relay, so you can't hold a winning game.

That's how they were set up originally. However, most of these games went to Britain, where it was decided that knowing you could hold the next game was too much of an inducement to gamble. Holds were therefore outlawed. The lawyers came back and said wait a minute - if the player didn't KNOW he could hold the next game, it wouldn't be an inducement. The judges agreed, and they were allowed to keep the hold, but there had to be a randomizer so the player didn't know until he coined it whether he could hold or not. This caused another problem, because most machines couldn't then meet the legally required 80% payout. So then the randomizer was modified to allow occasional hold-after-win to make it up. If you get a British machine you nearly always have to strip out a cam timer and rewire it a bit to get it back working the way nature intended.

For what it's worth, if you play a hold machine without ever using the holds it drops the payout percentage by close to 50%. The only payout unaffected is the left cherry, but this is slightly offset because you will sometimes hit a cherry when you would have held the left reel. On the other hand, a player who knows the odds - the frequency of symbols - can do rather better than the operator intended, maybe a lot.

[OldReno]

Most excellent, OpBell, thank you for that!

[zinda]

I've been fooling around with one of these for the last 4 months, I had to rewire it almost completely, by now I have re soldered every wire in the cabinet! LOL Not because I wanted to but when you dig through the wires as much as I have you tend to weaken the strands and get some loose connections which will be your most challenging fixes ever.
 Fist off I agree with the operation as Op-Bell has described, what actually controls when you can hold is going to be 1 of 2 ways 1st is a random hold which will have a separate mechanism with a cam and switch that works independent of any of the moving parts on the machine, the electrical will tie in the same.
The second is not random and is offered whenever there was not a hold previously or there was not a payout. This way is controlled by a switch located down on the hopper indexing wheel for the payout counter. There's a switch that would be called the top at zero or as I would call it reset return closed. It will allow the hold only if that switch is closed as it is normally. The index wheel pin will leave the zero setting on any payout and breaks that switch. It will remain open until the next handle pull when it gets the reset pulse, then if you don't win it will be closed and ready for a hold.
  I also got my Sir Prize unit Rewired and NOW IS FULLY FUNCTIONAL!
I have pictures but thery are too hard to see where the wires go and too crowded when I tried to label them with a path to where they came from and what is effected by each wire and each switch position for each set of wires. I will need to draw up a sketch of the unit to more clearly show the wires accurately and have a notation of where they came from and where they go when they leave the unit. I didn't exactly use the same colors as Bally has described in there version of the Non functional Sir Prize wiring they have posted in their repair manual. Plus with so many extra wires running in my machine I adapted many of them to be reused for this purpose. Most are wires left over from Token coins and multi-play circuits that were removed. I do have wires running to lights that signify the Sir Prize has been hit and another that will light up when the SirPrize JP is hit. Just no place on the glass to represent them. I'm considering a 2 or 3 stage Candle to better display the actions.
 
Making your own Sir Prize unit is very simple, it is just a stepper set up with a return Sol and a group of switches tied into 2 relays each with its own set of switches. maybe 1 set of 4 - 3 NO and 1 MBB the other with only 2 NO and the Indexer group has 7 or 8 including a Zero at Top, a reset return, an advancer, a light controller, 2 for JP open, and a SirPrize activated switch more depending on how many lights you want to control. Anyone with any experience at all in working with Leaf switches and Relays should be able to draw this up in a single night. My mistake was trying to use the information provided to me and not knowing it wouldn't work until I had it done and redone several times. I read up on some pinball wiring for steppers and started to get the idea of what I needed to do to keep the relay latched and make the jack pot circuit ready for 6 pulls before it was cut. Of course there is nothing that is axactly used like this on Pinball games but they have the best pictures with explanations in multiple configurations to examine. Where Slots do not have clear cut examples of what you are looking for but rather the ideas of what may be seen splattered about in many different locations and none will clearly reference the others.

[OldReno]

VERY impressive!!!
Super job, thanks for posting all that.
Now you're our go-to-guy for hold and draws....

[zinda]

I Think I have a picture of those cams and motor you were asking about. I'm not sure if it will do very much to solve any problems but it is the determining factor for RANDOM holds, meaning it only allows hold when those cams line up. I found that if my game did not have a hold allowed on every non winning pull, it would be useless. the game is just impossible to win without it. Very seldom is there a win in 1 pull. I could probably count the number of 1 pull wins that were not due to cherries or lemons.
 Those are the lowest payouts on mine.
If yours is really hard to hit a win I would consider bypassing that assembly and have the hold and draw wired like the old style. this would only involve the pay out wheels reset switch, closed at zero, so when the cam is reset after the next pull after a win the hold will be activated again. If that switch is open it will not allow a hold.
  You may need to install the switch.