Pay the Aces (No Faces) Game Info?

[UNIMAN]

Ahh, knew the 83.99% was not right. Thanks for the info!
Yes, the royals are low. Will see how it plays for me.

[StatFreak]

Hi Uni.

After looking this over, it is the number of games played and the cash screen that doesn't jive with the number of hits.

The number of hits across the board is consistent with about 7.7 to 7.8 million hands played. I checked JoB pairs through 4k(5-k)s. I didn't check the last of the 4k's or the straight flush. The RFs at 177 are also within expectation but a little low. 212 would be the statistical expectation.

As for the dealt hands, they too are consistent with about 7.85 million hands. Again, it's the RF that's off with only 6 dealt RFs instead of the expected 12. That might or might not be within statistical expectation but I haven't run the math.

So now the question is, why are all of the coin accounting numbers consistent within themselves but inconsistent with the number of hits - which are also consistent within themselves?

[UNIMAN]

Hi Uni.

After looking this over, it is the number of games played and the cash screen that doesn't jive with the number of hits.

The number of hits across the board is consistent with about 7.7 to 7.8 million hands played. I checked JoB pairs through 4k(5-k)s. I didn't check the last of the 4k's or the straight flush. The RFs at 177 are also within expectation but a little low. 212 would be the statistical expectation.

As for the dealt hands, they too are consistent with about 7.85 million hands. Again, it's the RF that's off with only 6 dealt RFs instead of the expected 12. That might or might not be within statistical expectation but I haven't run the math.

So now the question is, why are all of the coin accounting numbers consistent within themselves but inconsistent with the number of hits - which are also consistent within themselves?

How very astute of you, Stat.
The total games played say 14 mil +, but when you look at games per coins played, (see pic) it adds up to about 7.8 million. Just like you stated it should be.
And why when you add games lost with games won it is 1 more game than total games?

So why is the total games/games won/games lost, almost double the recorded individual stats? Some kind of partial clear performed halfway through the machines life??
What am I missing here?

I played five hands to make sure each dealt with draw play was counted as one and it was. Even when hitting an ace with no facecard. I can see a problem when say a straight is dealt, A,2,3,4,5. It would be two wins in one hand. But does not explain 14 million games total with half as much recorded stats.

[jay]

Just floating this idea  Does this count only COIN / Bill in. Which would be different than the number of games played.

For instance if I put $20 into a 0.01 penny slot, I play and win $50, but continue to play and blow the credits gained - my player tracking card shows at least $70 played.
However coin in remains at $20.

From a taxable revenue stance Coin in - Coin out = Profit; profit is taxed. The casino would not want to be taxed on $70 (in).

Just food for thought   




 

[knagl]

For kicks, I just played exactly ten games in MAME from a fresh load of the ROMs, which included recycling credits as they were won (playing credits instead of adding more coins).  The counters ended up as they should have (see attached).

It's odd that Uniman's machine shows over 14 million hands played on one screen, but if you add up the number of hands played based on the picture he posted above in Reply #22, it rings up as 7.86 million.  The good news with that is that the dealt quad aces total at 105 is now very close to what should be expected (around 110), so that restores some faith in the game for me.

[StatFreak]

Hi Uni.

After looking this over, it is the number of games played and the cash screen that doesn't jive with the number of hits.

The number of hits across the board is consistent with about 7.7 to 7.8 million hands played. I checked JoB pairs through 4k(5-k)s. I didn't check the last of the 4k's or the straight flush. The RFs at 177 are also within expectation but a little low. 212 would be the statistical expectation.

As for the dealt hands, they too are consistent with about 7.85 million hands. Again, it's the RF that's off with only 6 dealt RFs instead of the expected 12. That might or might not be within statistical expectation but I haven't run the math.

So now the question is, why are all of the coin accounting numbers consistent within themselves but inconsistent with the number of hits - which are also consistent within themselves?

How very astute of you, Stat.
The total games played say 14 mil +, but when you look at games per coins played, (see pic) it adds up to about 7.8 million. Just like you stated it should be....

Wow. Interesting. My estimate based on a single dealt ace with four non-face cards (should be the closest to actual value) was 7,864,871 and your machine indicates 7,860,288. For two aces with three non-face cards I got 7,863,007. I'd say those are as close as they could be! Cool.

So if we look at the drawn hands, straights come up the shortest while 3k and 4k(5-k) are slightly over. That's probably because most players didn't play with the correct strategy and aimed for the quads more often than they should have.

P.S. BTW, I just looked at the first post and the second table for the dealt bonuses (taken from the WOO site) is the wrong one for your game. You need the second one on his list that has 1500 for the dealt aces and that adds in the dealt royal. I had actually figured all that stuff out before looking online for any info. Oh, well.

[StatFreak]

...And why when you add games lost with games won it is 1 more game than total games?

So why is the total games/games won/games lost, almost double the recorded individual stats? Some kind of partial clear performed halfway through the machines life??
What am I missing here?  ...

Those are the real quandaries.    These discrepancies shouldn't exist. You might be right about a partial clear but it still seems odd to me.

Another thing that doesn't quite add up: The screen lists the total "top pays" as 298. However, it lists 177 drawn royals, 6 dealt royals and 105 dealt quad aces no faces. That adds up to 288. Where did the other 10 come from?

Kevin's MAME experiment gave the results we would expect and I suspect that your machine would as well if you ran a short trial starting with the current numbers as a baseline adjusted to zero. Something must have happened over the course of the machine's life or there might be glitches here and there. Maybe one game tilted or the machine malfunctioned during a game and that caused the error of 1, but that doesn't explain the error of 10 for the jackpots or the huge error of games played.

Just floating this idea  Does this count only COIN / Bill in. Which would be different than the number of games played.

For instance if I put $20 into a 0.01 penny slot, I play and win $50, but continue to play and blow the credits gained - my player tracking card shows at least $70 played.
However coin in remains at $20.
...

Total coin in would be over $70 (the total amount actually played) and total coin out would be over $50 (total amount actually played less $20) Physical coin in (if bills are not separated from coins -- IF the machine has a coin slot) would be $20. Jackpots would be zero.

It would not inflate anything for the IRS as the machines net revenue is total coin in plus transferred in credits less total coin out less jackpots paid less credits transferred out (and maybe less canceled credits. ?) Even on the S+ the mechanical meters take into account the difference between inserted money and washed money.

[StatFreak]

Hmm. The jackpots paid is also off. If the top three pays were all 5-coin bets, they would have paid a total of 1,525,500 coins. (5000 * 6 + 7500 * 105 + 4000 * 177) but the machine is reporting 2,404,549. If some of the top prizes were won at less than 5 coins the number would be even smaller and so the discrepancy, larger. It's also odd that the number is odd. (pun intended.) The paytable indicates even amounts for all coins for the top three prizes.

The ratio of stated top prizes out to maximum expected paid is 1.576.

The ratio of exaggerated total played hands to actual played hands is 1.812. If we use 1.812 and apply it to the machine's reported total jackpot out, it would come to 1,326,814 -- the equivalent of an average of 4.35 coins bet for each large win. When we look at the actual games played screen, the average coin in per game is 4.505. That's within the realm of possibility.

It does support the hypothesis of a clear that zeroed out the hands played per each number of coins, the number of specific hits for dealt and drawn hands and the number of top hits, but not the money or total games played/won/lost.

I still have no idea how that could be accomplished.

[knagl]

The jackpots paid is also off. ....  It's also odd that the number is odd. (pun intended.) The paytable indicates even amounts for all coins for the top three prizes.

I think we can blame Uniman for that one.  In Reply #15, he had his hopper limit set to 451 (something the casino likely did not do), and then went and hit the dealt aces/no face for a 451 coin payout from the hopper and a jackpot of 7049.   

[knagl]

P.S. BTW, I just looked at the first post and the second table for the dealt bonuses (taken from the WOO site) is the wrong one for your game. You need the second one on his list that has 1500 for the dealt aces and that adds in the dealt royal.

The Wizard's site is just wrong about the game.  According to the archived website of the manufacturer, there was only ever one paytable created for this game.  I think the Wizard just got his info a little mixed up when he was analyzing the game.

The only thing I can think of is if somehow Bally messed with the paytable for their Game Maker version.  I saw it once in Laughlin (as pictured in the first post in this thread), but I don't think I ever looked at the paytable.  To the best of my knowledge and research, however, the only PE+ version ever created is the one with the dealt royal bonus and the dealt aces pay 1500 per coin, with a theoretical perfect-play payback of 98.4%.  I would be surprised if the Game Maker clone had a different paytable and one less award category.

[ricker]

Bally had 4 pay the aces games for the gamemaker.  Well one of the games was deuces wild with no faces. They had 2 paytables for each of the four. The other 3 pokers are bonus, double bonus, and double double bonus. Payback % with 5-100 coins as follows:

Smi P0758-59 Bonus: 97.14 and 98.43
Smi P0760-61 Double Bonus: 95.86 and 97.51
Smi p0762-63 Dbl. Dbl. Bonus: 95.67 and 97.35
Smi p0764-65 Deuces Wild: 97.50 and99.63

I have not seen the files for these, but if anyone has them, GM owners want em, so share please.

I will check to see if any of the pars match the paytables shown in the picture posted above.

Richard

Update: Bonus Poker, Smi 0759(98.43%) par sheet matches paytable glass picture on page 1, including dealt royal.

[UNIMAN]

The jackpots paid is also off. ....  It's also odd that the number is odd. (pun intended.) The paytable indicates even amounts for all coins for the top three prizes.

I think we can blame Uniman for that one.  In Reply #15, he had his hopper limit set to 451 (something the casino likely did not do), and then went and hit the dealt aces/no face for a 451 coin payout from the hopper and a jackpot of 7049.   

Now hold on! The machine was originally set at 251, I bumped it to 451, so the odd number was always there. 

[UNIMAN]

Ok, now that we have gotten this far, let me "muddy the waters" a bit more!
The DoubleUp feature was enabled when I bought the machine, I turned it off at startup when I got it. But before you get hope this will explain things let me say this;
I enabled the DoubleUp. Played several hands and took the Doubleup. Lost the first three and doubled upped twice on the forth hand. Machine counted the exact number of hands. DoubleUp had no change to how records recorded. Except, there now appears a new screen page called Double Up Meters. It only shows the double up's since I enabled it, no previous history. So it looks like double up is stored separetly as it should be. But I'm now puzzeled some more. When disabling DoubleUp, the DoubleUp meters disappear. Then, when enabling again, after playing without it, the DoubleUp meters reappear and retained the memory of when I had it enabled previously. So, did the slot store I bought it from enable the doubleup and never tried it? And it was never enabled prior to that in the casino. Or are the old doubleup records lost??? hmm.
I would think once activated and used the meters should always be in the accounting menu.

In the attached pic is a reflection of a strange man holding a camera with a ceiling fan behind him. Oh, never mind. 
(The pic is not from the four double up plays stated above.)

[UNIMAN]

Oh, this just keeps getting uglier!
I played ten hands at five coins per hand. Took before and after meter screen pics.
Hands;

#1 loser
#2 loser
#3 loser
#4 pair jkoB  double up and win, double again and win Total 20 credits won. Decline third double up and take win
#5 loser
#6 loser
#7 Ace/wo/Face 5 credits payed out, then loser hand
#8 loser
#9 loser
#10 loser
Totals; 50 credits wagered, 20 credits payed to meter, 5 credits payed out by hopper, 1 winning hand, 9 losing hands, 1 ace/wo/face.

Now look at the pics. Everything correct except COIN OUT that says 55 coins out??? That also affected the yield. Where did it get 55 coins out???
UPDATE: Figured it out. Coin Out is anything paid by hopper or decrease in credit meter. Ten games played = 50 coin out, one Ace/woFace = additional 5 by hopper. Got it.
So, only real mystery is why there are 14 million games recorded on first meter page?

[StatFreak]

... So, only real mystery is why there are 14 million games recorded on first meter page?

...and why the top pays of 298 hits doesn't match... and why the jackpot coins paid is so high (the double up shouldn't affect it... or should it?  )


...And I agree that the double up data shouldn't reset unless the machine is cleared. As I recall, that's how my Gamemaker worked, so you might be right about it not having been used in the casino.

[knagl]

and why the jackpot coins paid is so high (the double up shouldn't affect it... or should it?  )

In theory I think the double-up could affect it if it was possible to double up to a win that was greater than the hopper limit.  Once you said "no" to the double-up once you were above the hopper limit, I can only presume the machine would lock up with a jackpot, which would go to that meter.

...And I agree that the double up data shouldn't reset unless the machine is cleared. As I recall, that's how my Gamemaker worked, so you might be right about it not having been used in the casino.

Double-up is not very popular in Nevada, and it's really annoying on the PE+ machines as you have to say "No" after every winning hand.  At least on the Game Kings it's just there as a menu option after you win a hand -- on the PE+ it forces you to answer after every winning hand.  Between how annoying that is, and how double-up isn't very popular in Nevada (where this machine was from), it seems logical to me that it was not enabled in the casino.

[StatFreak]

As an aside, I was reading one of the Wizard's answers to various questions and he advocated (rather, he said that he himself would) use the double up feature on negative return games because it is a free bet with no house advantage and is similar to advocating taking odds in craps. He wisely advocates against using the feature if one is playing an advantage game, and he also cautioned readers to be prepared for the added variance if one used the feature.

Double-up is not very popular in Nevada, and it's really annoying on the PE+ machines as you have to say "No" after every winning hand.  At least on the Game Kings it's just there as a menu option after you win a hand -- on the PE+ it forces you to answer after every winning hand.  Between how annoying that is, and how double-up isn't very popular in Nevada (where this machine was from), it seems logical to me that it was not enabled in the casino.

Yeah, the GK slants at the Fremont that have Pick-Em have the feature enabled but thankfully, it only asks once each time a new game is selected and has the option "No, and don't ask again." It would be a serious annoyance to have to answer no after every win. I would also be really pissed if I accidentally hit yes after a large win.