Bally E 809 coin in problems

[rjpohl]

I stopped and looked this machine for a guy today that is several miles from me, hopefully with your help I can direct him in the right direction to repair.


5 coin, 1 payline with progressive.



The machine seems to work fine for the first coin, the coin accepted light comes on and the handle cna be pulled.  Not sure is it actually pays out (at least it never did for me).
The second, third coin etc are accepted but do not register (turn coin lights in feature) on. The coin in meter does advance with each coin.  I pulled out reel and feature assemblies, beau plugs looked clean.  After cleaning several contacts it did acept 2nd, 3rd and 4th  coin (I stopped when it got to 4th coin) one time but handle would not pull.  I manually tripped the coin in assembly (might be wrong name) in top box, then handle would pull.  After this it would not register 2nd coin again.


Thanks for your help
Bob

[Amechanic]

Bob,
        It sounds like that machine needs a good cleaning of its contacts, beau plugs, hopper assembly, odds units. It's time consuming but once done, it should be fine. These older Ballys need there regular maintenance to play correctly. They were meant to be played daily, that helped to keep the contact working. When they sit, the contacts tarnish and loose there continuity. When that happens its time for a service call..

Gary

[rjpohl]

I did check the beau plugs and looked as clean as any I've seen.  I also cleaned the contacts of the side of the reel mech.  I didn't have time to clean any contacts on the feature  unit.  This machine is about 30 miles away and I was hoping to narrow down the problem area/switch.  I may have to just bring the machine back to my house since it's probally be very time consuming.


love this machines but they seem to give me a lot of grief!!!  Also thinking I may need to invest in or make a set of extension cables. 


thanks
Bob

[Amechanic]

The extention cables are a must working in these old machines. I have two 18 pin and two 24 pin cables. I need to make or buy 30 pin set..

[The Fatman]

I had a issue with an 809 where the switchbank behind the clock looked, but they were no makng good contact. I saw on set was pitted and it looked to close but didnt. I did jave to file tat switch, which I dont normally do. But that fixed that problem. look for the larger contact switch , it might be pitted and appear to make when it doesnt.
Dave F

[rjpohl]

i saw a guy on ebay selling extension kits (5 cables for $175). 

[The Fatman]

If I remember  correctly, his name is Jim. You should also be able to find him here too.
jimbailey@charter.net is the email that I have.
Dave F

[Jim]

Bob,

when you work on these machines you have to approach them in two ways. First, you have to get the machine working 100% using one coin. why?, if everything is working on one coin then any problems after that have to be with the feature units or multipliers. Using the one coin theory, on the down ward stroke of the coin switch, the coin relay(left side, back of reel mech) will unlatch, this action will reset the odds unit back to zero, change the insert coin to  coin accepted. on the upward stroke of the coin switch, the handle coil will energize, which will allow the handle to be pulled. as the reels are spinning, the clock fan is spinning as well, and the switches on the left side of the reel mech are doing certain actions, one important action is to reset the coin counter on the hopper. you can force the machine to a winning combo, as soon as the reels spin, reach in with your left hand and stop the fan on the clock ( this will stop the reels from being locked in)  now with your right hand, rotate the wheels to a winning combo and hold them in place, release the clock and let them lock in place and it should payout. you can do this and check every winning combo and the proper payout amount. usually if the hopper doesn't pay, the reset rubber absorber has the zero switch stuck to it.

After everything works using one coin, then you can go to the feature units and fix the problems there, usually the odds reset unit is dirty, this unit is pulsed for each additional coin in and advances the lights and sets up the proper multiplier action. you can usually step this unit using your finger to push the plunger on the step up coil and the action to reset it. a good cleaning and lube of the wafer contacts points will solve alot of the additional coin in features.

Hope this helps
Jim   

[rjpohl]

Jim,
Thanks for the advise and the time to response.  It sounds like a good way to approach the repairs.  Hopefully I can get back out to look at it in the next few weeks.
Bob

[OldReno]

It is obvious Jim has a pretty good idea on how these Ballys operate, so we should aways pay attention to his posts.  My only input into his last post is that the downstroke of the coin switch UNlatches the coin relay assembly.  It is relatched when you pull the handle and then it is physically reset.  This is called a trip relay, it is tripped or released by an electrical pulse into the coin relay coil, and it will stay unlatched until you finally pull the handle and your linkages and mechanisms force the relay to relatch. 
By the way, the coin relay, when it unlatches, allows for the coin accepted light switch (NO) to close, thus turning on the coin accept light.  This is how a mechanic can tell from outside the machine, if the downstroke of the coin switch was successful.
Now, here's a little secret that will be absolutely of use to no-one here (because these aren't in casinos anymore), but, often a floor mechanic would run across a machine with coin accepted light, but no handle pull. This is mostly caused by a coin getting stuck and holding the coin in switch on the door down, thus keeping it from returning to the upstroke side.  A mechanic can often fix this problem by just banging on the door, in the area where the coin would be stuck.  I have used this many times, mostly to impress chicks, key people, and floor bosses  but that's another story, and no good here.

So, whenever I get a new machine to work on, the first thing I do is bring it into the house to let it warm up for a day or so.
Then I pull each unit out and inspect it.  I work all of the coils and solenoids to verify they are not hanging up, or that the solenoid plungers have gotten stuck by the coil melting, and then I go through each and every stack of switches, to verify to myself that each switch is able to fully open, and fully close when operated on by whatever actuates it.  I look for light between the switches when they open, and also for movement when they close.  They can appear closed, but unless I SEE a little bit of movement, even a tiny bit, then I am not satisfied that they are making contact.
After I am happy that everything appears to be working ok, then I power up the machine, and look to see the fluorescent lights light up (120V working), any of the feature lights or odds lights turning on (6V working), and then I will push down on the coin switch to HEAR if any sounds are made by the machine (50V working).
If I have problems, then I will grab my two jumper wires, and methodically test each and every coil, and every light on the machine if needed.  I do not have or need a set of jumpers for my machines, because I know that I can test every component with just my two little jumper wires. (See post on Using Jumpers)
I am not trying to discourage anyone from buying a full set of jumper cables, if you can afford them, nor am I trying to badmouth anyone who is trying to make an honest living by building those cable sets, however, many cannot afford a nicely made set of jumpers.  For those who cannot, I write this post.
Again, it is a lot of work, time consuming work to make jumper cables.  Anyone who does it should be commended for being able to do a good job at it, and I hope that all who do are successful.  It is an art.
That said, most here do not want to learn the theory of how these things work, I think most just want to get their machines up and running right.
The methods I described above, were called in the industry 'shotgunning', and those who did it were often belittled by 'old time' mechanics who through experience learned the circuits and were able to diagnose and find problems because of that knowledge. 
But shotgunning works for me when I cannot remember a specific problem, or am encountering a new machine.
I do love the circuitry because it is diabolical and yet makes so much sense.  These things are pre-computer machines, than were 'programmed', just like an eprom is, to do a specific task or set of tasks.  The programming here was how it was wired and sequenced.  If you have the time and energy to learn the sequencing then I and Jim and others will help you understand it.  If not, and I will not at all be disappointed, we will still try to help you find and fix problems.
I think I've worn out my welcome for today, so, keep at it.
Oh, and I forgot to mention the very most important tool to fixing a Bally slot machine, and that is the Free Downloaded Bally Manual that is here in the E/M section.  This is your and my most important tool....

[CVslots]

Wow...Jim and Donner, kudos to the both of you. Much more is owed to you than kudos really, as what the hell even is a kudo? 

Your guys' knowledge and understanding of these machines never ceases to amaze. You both have a very well founded understanding, experience, and appreciation for early Bally machines. It is a lost art, that you 2 should be commended for and should also take great pride in.

Because of my age (hahahaha  ) I never was able to walk into a casino and see an EM on the floor. Darrell (husband) is completely intrigued with them, and would be perfectly happy if casinos ONLY had EMs still. Reading your posts is like listening to a master teach their student. You both teach on the philosophy and overall understanding, not just rote learning (like our entitled, instant Yes/No result based society is accustomed to). Absolutely refreshing and enlightening...

Thank you both again for your posts...   Keep them coming...

Roslyn

[Jim]

Roz,       Thanks        like the old machines,   have to appreciate the thought and design that went into building those machines, just the idea of the reel mech and all the action that goes into spinning the reels, not to mention the  thought process into the wiring and the layout of the three line and five line payout scheme.


Reno   sorry about that, doing this from memory.  thanks for the correction.


Jim

[OldReno]

Roslyn, you are too kind.
It is gratifying to be called an artist rather than a technician and I will try to live up that 'badge'.
Jim, no problem, I just wanted the record to show what was correct, I know I certainly forget many things also, but you are right on in your understanding of the Ballys.  Thank you.
Some day perhaps all these posts and the ones on the old board will be compiled and used in a teaching manual.  It will be tedious for those who write it, but there is enough great info on here from the likes of Jim, OpBell and others so that even the smallest subtlety of these machines will be brought to light.
Please remember folks, that I have a leg up on most of you as I was paid to teach people how to work on these things, and also involved in many modifications and designing safety features into them.  Please never mistake my comments as arrogance, because the only difference between you and me is that I have had more time working on the machines.  That's all.
And remember always, your best tool is the free downloaded Bally Manual found on this site....
We ALL bring something to the table here, imho, and I am delighted to be a part of it.
Thank you.

[bally bob]

I have an electronics background and have been working on electro mechanical machines for over 30 years, pinballs, jukeboxes, bowlers, etc. I have learned that any machine I want to keep needs to be totally gone through. That means at a minimum inspecting, manually working each relay, cleaning the contacts and adjusting the switches if needed to assure they are working properly. Every relay requires this. Just going in and fixing one problem doesn't cut it, because tomorrow something else will malfunction. In the past couple of months I have started working on Bally slots, my own as a collector. All 3 that I bought were sold to me because they were no longer working, worked on by people who couldn't fix them, not maintained and had been sitting in a warehouse or storage shed 10 years. So going through everything needs to be a starting point.

[The Fatman]

Just want to let this be known .... that almost all I know about Bally EM's I have got from this site, and yes OldReno or Donner is the one responsible for my advancement in working on the machines. I so respect his knowledge and exeperience, but more so his willinness to share his knowledge with us so we can learn faster without having to have only discovery by mistakes. he has saved me so much time on repairs ... dont get me wrong, I still take the long way sometimes but I am ok with that.
My friend ... thank you ... hope you can make to it to the get together at Pottstown PA.
dave F

[jim k-falls]

And thanks for the referral, and im greatful for all you guys who have helped me when i was green(er)..im going to have to start shopping for more beau plugs, had a good supply for awhile..  jim k-falls