Payout trouble Bally Super Continental

[JanGbg]

Hi!
I have a super Continental who allways payout to much when you play 4-6 coins. If you play 1-3 coins it allways work perfect. But if you play 4 or more coins the mashine never stop paying out Before it's empty.
I dont have the schematics so I can't fault trace it. But I have found that the "Odds follower counter" (Right counter on pic) only get the first signal (should be 5 if you play 6 coins) after paying 2 (1 cherrie).
Do anyone know where this signal is genereted? Or any other ideas about what is wrong?On the pic the machine had payed a win for cherrie, 3 coin played.

[JanGbg]

And here is a pic of my Super Continental.

[Jon]

you will have to make a donation to new life games so you can download the schematic I posted the 891 schematic in the file system
its really not hard to chase the wire out on the multiplier that causing that without the schematic

[OldReno]

I think the odds follower works depending on how many steps up the odds disk has made (odds disk is to the left of odds follower)  You might want to clean the odds disk and it's fingers and make sure there is good tension.
Give a closer pic of the odds follower if you can.
Thanks.

[JanGbg]

I think the odds follower works depending on how many steps up the odds disk has made (odds disk is to the left of odds follower)  You might want to clean the odds disk and it's fingers and make sure there is good tension.
Give a closer pic of the odds follower if you can.
Thanks.

Here you are! Thank you for your help! :-)
I even post pics of two other "counters".

[JanGbg]

Here is a video when it's work properly (3 coin and 1 cherrie =3x2)

[JanGbg]

And here is a video when 6 coins inserted and the hopper never stop paying out. I noticed that the "Count unit"
(the left counter) starts to step up.

[DavidLee]

I'm very interested in what is causing the problem with your machine. As I have an 809 with the same problem, only  the hopper continues to run on the first through fifth  coin payouts. I'm suspecting an open in the circuit as the payout step up unit is not advancing.. Probably be a few more weeks until I'm able to get into the machine. Hopefully you'll have solved the problem and I will learn from it. As my knowledge about these 5 coin step up units is a little weak.

[OldReno]

I think your odds follower is messed up.
Check it and see that it is able to reset fully and also step up.
It has a reset solenoid and a step up solenoid. 
Notice the 5 or 6 buttons that your wiper can set on.  It does not appear to be moving across all of those buttons.
As I recall, when playing multiple coins, the machine pays out one time.  Then the odds and top unit do their magic, the odds follower steps once (or resets one, depending on point of view), then the hopper pays the same pay once again.
And it resets once again as the odds follower steps to a new button.
It repeats, and repeats with the odds follower moving the wiper always to a new button.
Your wiper seems stuck.  Do a physical check on the unit.  It should be free to move to all the buttons.
Keep us posted. It's been awhile since I worked on one.
And, at the last coin to be paid, the odds follower steps one last time, reset hopper one last time, and then the final payout on the payboard happens, and you should see your hopper payboard fingers stepped off the pay tab.  They should not be reset to zero, but just off the pay tab.
Hope that helps a bit.

[OldReno]

David your 809 is different, it uses the X-units (white donuts) and the one it uses is selected by the odds disc.  You can remove the 4 screws that hold the light panel onto your top unit, and then carefully drop it down so that you can watch these things as they work.  Also there should be a schematic on the 809 type x-units somewhere in your free downloaded bally manual.  Try around page 18 or 20 or so.  But I will explain when I have a chance.  Verify that the x-units work for each coin in played, 2 coins, 3, 4, and 5 coins.  Each coin should show you a different X-unit working.

[DavidLee]

Mr. Reno,

Thanks for the info, most likely will start a new post as not to confuse/conflict with existing post.
But, let me ask you this. I have another odds unit that works, would it be safe to use it for testing?
Both machines are 809s single line 5 coin machines.
I don't thing it would matter unless there was a slight modification, possibility blowing a fuse.
Let me know if you think it would be okay and I'll give them a swap to see what happens in the process of elimination.
 

[OldReno]

I think it would be fine, and probably the right thing to do.
Worst thing is probably blow a fuse, or if overfused melt a coil, but you WILL keep an eye on it, yes?
Coils take a couple of minutes to melt down usually....
Nothing funnier than walking up to a machine on the floor and seeing smoke rolling out of the top unit....Ha!
And again, you can remove 4 screws and drop down the light panel so you can see what is going on in there....

[JanGbg]

I think your odds follower is messed up.
Check it and see that it is able to reset fully and also step up.
It has a reset solenoid and a step up solenoid. 
Notice the 5 or 6 buttons that your wiper can set on.  It does not appear to be moving across all of those buttons.
As I recall, when playing multiple coins, the machine pays out one time.  Then the odds and top unit do their magic, the odds follower steps once (or resets one, depending on point of view), then the hopper pays the same pay once again.
And it resets once again as the odds follower steps to a new button.
It repeats, and repeats with the odds follower moving the wiper always to a new button.
Your wiper seems stuck.  Do a physical check on the unit.  It should be free to move to all the buttons.
Keep us posted. It's been awhile since I worked on one.
And, at the last coin to be paid, the odds follower steps one last time, reset hopper one last time, and then the final payout on the payboard happens, and you should see your hopper payboard fingers stepped off the pay tab.  They should not be reset to zero, but just off the pay tab.
Hope that helps a bit.

Ok, but I dont understand one thing. When you play 3 coins the odds follower step up 2 steps. But if you play 4-6 the odds follower only step up one step. I have measured the coil and it get only the first signal. Where is this signal comming from?

[OldReno]

I'm pretty sure it's from the odds disc.  That is what eventually tells the odds follower how many times to step and how many times to reset the hopper payboard.  Is your odds follower able to physically do all the steps?
IIRC, the odds follower should step at least 5 times for a 6 coin played win....

[JanGbg]

I'm pretty sure it's from the odds disc.  That is what eventually tells the odds follower how many times to step and how many times to reset the hopper payboard.  Is your odds follower able to physically do all the steps?
IIRC, the odds follower should step at least 5 times for a 6 coin played win....

All discs can physical do all steps. I lubricates the moving parts and cleaned all the contact pin on all counters just to be sure. I found a relay called Odds follower relay (see Arrow on pic). I Think this generate the signal to odds follower counter. I forced it and the odds follower counter take a step. BUT! It dont stop payout anyway. (I tried to force the relay 4 times meanwhile a the hopper payd out, but the hopper never stops anyway. :-( ). (Simulating 6 coins in, the odds follower counter take the first step and I forced odds follower relay 4 times= Odds follower counter had take 5 steps.
 

[OldReno]

Well I don't know on this one.  I notice you have a credit machine...Have you figured out how that works, or could it have any impact on your payouts?
What is the hopper board doing during this runaway...is it resetting, or just stepping up?  Where are the payout fingers when you pull out the hopper?
Try to follow the wire that runs your odds follower step up solenoid and see where it goes.
Does it runaway on a cherry pay or low pay?
My generic shotgun approach for stuff I cannot figure out is to carefully visually inspect all switches for proper open and close.  If I can't find anything then, then I sit on it for awhile.  Have you jumpered all your solenoids and coils in the top unit to verify they work?
What happens when you remove that encapsulated relay shown on the right in your picture?

[ricker]

Hey,

The key switch on the right side of cabinet, lower one is a two way switch. one way credit the other way not.

Richard

[JanGbg]

Well I don't know on this one.  I notice you have a credit machine...Have you figured out how that works, or could it have any impact on your payouts?
What is the hopper board doing during this runaway...is it resetting, or just stepping up?  Where are the payout fingers when you pull out the hopper?
Try to follow the wire that runs your odds follower step up solenoid and see where it goes.
Does it runaway on a cherry pay or low pay?
My generic shotgun approach for stuff I cannot figure out is to carefully visually inspect all switches for proper open and close.  If I can't find anything then, then I sit on it for awhile.  Have you jumpered all your solenoids and coils in the top unit to verify they work?
What happens when you remove that "shown on the right in your picture?

* No the credit unot does not impact the payouts.
* The odds followers coil is erergized by the "Odds follower realy".
* The hopper board is stepping up until I stop the machine.
* It does'nt matter if it's a low or high win.
* SAme problem if I remove the "encapsulated relay".

It's seems like it is some problem with the comparing of the odds units. But why only when I play four or more?

[OldReno]

Does all the wiring appear original, or is there newer looking wire in the machine?

[JanGbg]

Does all the wiring appear original, or is there newer looking wire in the machine?

It's original wiring.