1088-2 Tilt Light On, Hopper Not Working

[Karloz25]

I have a 1088-2 EM machine.
The machine accepts coins.
Handle works.
Reels spin and stop good.
No payout after a winning combo.
The tilt light is always on.


I’ve replaced both blue capacitors on the hopper.
The hopper has no signs of life during game play.
I haven’t heard it energize.


Any ideas?

[essmeier]

I'm not familiar with the 1088, so I'm offering general advice based on what would cause the problem on the 873 or 1091 that I own.

Most Bally machines have a tilt switch; it's likely located in the feature unit above the reels.

That switch is normally closed and one of the leaves has a weight on it.  If the machine is moved, the weight moves, the switch opens and that will cause the tilt light to light up.

If that switch is misadjusted so that it's always open, that will cause your tilt light to remain on and will likely prevent the machine from doing anything useful.  On my 1091, that switch is located in a position that makes it easy to accidentally hit or mangle while you're working on other things.

If that switch is OK, then the next likely culprit would be misadjusted switches on your anti-cheat relay.

I'm an amateur at this, but it's a good place to start.  I'm sure Wolftalk will chime in shortly with more model-specific suggestions.

Photo of a typical tilt switch attached.

[wolftalk]

1088-2 looks like a sands casino machine.  Uses same reel tapes, payout counter, index discs, etc as the 94.66% payback version of the 1088, which you can grab the paperwork for from https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/


on the 1088 bally called the "anti-cheat relay" the "hopper cutoff relay".  There should be a reset button near the top/right of the door opening.  If you push it, the hopper cutoff relay should power and keep itself powered.   It should also power and stay powered when the handle is pulled.


if you want to see if that's your only issue, you can strap down the hopper cutoff relay armature plate onto the coil top and see if the game pays then.  If it does, you just need to figure out why the hopper cutoff relay isn't powering or staying powered.  Is the schematic good enough or do you need more specific info?


the 1N4004 diode if bad can be replaced with a 1N400x, where X >= 4.  1N4007 is very common and usually the packaging costs more than the diodes inside :-)

[Karloz25]

1088-2 looks like a sands casino machine.  Uses same reel tapes, payout counter, index discs, etc as the 94.66% payback version of the 1088, which you can grab the paperwork for from https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/


on the 1088 bally called the "anti-cheat relay" the "hopper cutoff relay".  There should be a reset button near the top/right of the door opening.  If you push it, the hopper cutoff relay should power and keep itself powered.   It should also power and stay powered when the handle is pulled.


if you want to see if that's your only issue, you can strap down the hopper cutoff relay armature plate onto the coil top and see if the game pays then.  If it does, you just need to figure out why the hopper cutoff relay isn't powering or staying powered.  Is the schematic good enough or do you need more specific info?


the 1N4004 diode if bad can be replaced with a 1N400x, where X >= 4.  1N4007 is very common and usually the packaging costs more than the diodes inside :-)

Thanks for the links.


I’m still new at this, it’s my first EM machine.
I have pressed the silver cherry switch on the top right and nothing happens.
Regarding the hoppy cutoff, and diode. I not sure what those are.
I will post pics of the hopper and maybe you can help me identify them.


This machine does not have a anti cheat weight switch, I haven’t seen one.

[Karloz25]

I also noticed on the coin unit what seems to be a broken “tooth” on the gear, is this normal?

The missing teeth, can be seen just about where the grease is on the white gear.

[wolftalk]

nice pics!  Mind if I swipe them and add them to the pics with the paperwork?


hopper cutoff relay labeled below [edit ... no it's not - I screwed up]


the flat spot/missing teeth on the ratchet is normal.  That prevents the unit from physically stepping up more than it should.  When the unit has stepped to the flat spot, it's at the "top" step.


if you jamb a piece of cardboard between the bottom of the payout relay and the hopper cutoff relay to hold down the HCR armature plate on the coil top, that'll tell you if that's your only issue.


you do have something odd ... the black wire on the left coil lug is supposed to be orange wire 70.  Ya may want to follow it thru the harness and see where it goes.   If it goes to the hopper plug, see if it's the right pin for wire 70 per the plug chart on the schematic.  It may be okay and it's a difference between the 1088 and 1088-2 ... worth checking to see.


the wire id -> colors chart is also on the schematic, so you can make sure which pin is supposed to be wire 70 be verifying there's a brown/blue wire next to it and a black/green wire below it.  I always forget whether the plug chart is looking at the plug or socket, and/or from the wire side or the pin/socket side.  If ya figure it out, let us know :-)  The plug and/or socket is actually numbered on the back ... or front ... I forget that also.

oh, and the schem says the capacitor on the HCR is supposed to be 50 MFD.  Yours is 30 MFD.  It'll probably work fine, but if you have a 50 MDF handy that is rated at least 150V, bung that in when you are bored.


the switches with the weight on a blade is sometimes called a "slam tilt switch".  A lot of casinos didn't need them because the floor was monitored and there were lots of employees roaming around.  On the 1088, the tilt light being on means the HCR is not powered.

[Karloz25]

nice pics!  Mind if I swipe them and add them to the pics with the paperwork?


hopper cutoff relay labeled below.


the flat spot/missing teeth on the ratchet is normal.  That prevents the unit from physically stepping up more than it should.  When the unit has stepped to the flat spot, it's at the "top" step.


if you jamb a piece of cardboard between the bottom of the payout relay and the hopper cutoff relay to hold down the HCR armature plate on the coil top, that'll tell you if that's your only issue.


you do have something odd ... the black wire on the left coil lug is supposed to be orange wire 70.  Ya may want to follow it thru the harness and see where it goes.   If it goes to the hopper plug, see if it's the right pin for wire 70 per the plug chart on the schematic.  It may be okay and it's a difference between the 1088 and 1088-2 ... worth checking to see.


the wire id -> colors chart is also on the schematic, so you can make sure which pin is supposed to be wire 70 be verifying there's a brown/blue wire next to it and a black/green wire below it.  I always forget whether the plug chart is looking at the plug or socket, and/or from the wire side or the pin/socket side.  If ya figure it out, let us know :-)  The plug and/or socket is actually numbered on the back ... or front ... I forget that also.

oh, and the schem says the capacitor on the HCR is supposed to be 50 MFD.  Yours is 30 MFD.  It'll probably work fine, but if you have a 50 MDF handy that is rated at least 150V, bung that in when you are bored.


the switches with the weight on a blade is sometimes called a "slam tilt switch".  A lot of casinos didn't need them because the floor was monitored and there were lots of employees roaming around.  On the 1088, the tilt light being on means the HCR is not powered.

I jammed two pieces of cardboard and wedged the relay coil.
Powered on the machine and the hopper had life, it kept spinning loudly.
I unplugged it and waiting further instructions.
No coins in hopper.
After about 30 seconds running it shuts off and the amber lights kicks on for the safety reset switch.
I did screw the “weight “ level switch on the hopper to be clicked on the whole time as I have been testing it and didn’t want to have a full bin of quarters regularly in the way.


I have a 50 MDF that I will install later tonight, I had replaced the one that’s as on there before as it looked damaged, but it too was a 30MDF


This is a pic of the old one.



Yes you can use my pics. I can share the whole unit, as I’ve searched for this 1088-2 unit online and have found very little results.
Side note: the machine accepts quarters, although the marquees states $1.00’s, is this a Susan b Anthony machine?

[Karloz25]

you do have something odd ... the black wire on the left coil lug is supposed to be orange wire 70.  Ya may want to follow it thru the harness and see where it goes.   If it goes to the hopper plug, see if it's the right pin for wire 70 per the plug chart on the schematic.  It may be okay and it's a difference between the 1088 and 1088-2 ... worth checking to see.

the wire id -> colors chart is also on the schematic, so you can make sure which pin is supposed to be wire 70 be verifying there's a brown/blue wire next to it and a black/green wire below it.  I always forget whether the plug chart is looking at the plug or socket, and/or from the wire side or the pin/socket side.  If ya figure it out, let us know :-)  The plug and/or socket is actually numbered on the back ... or front ... I forget that also.

Following the black wire from the coil, leads to the 60Hz spot of the hopper motor.
Is this ok?



The actual orange wire from the harness #70 actually runs to a relay box under the hopper.
It’s attached to a 50mdf.





Another thing very wired is, I found some modern crimped wires, meaning someone has worked on this before. Seems like
Some one cut the brown and orange wire from the hopper. The brown and orange wire leads from payout switch to the relay box below the hopper. The wires were cut in half and then each new end was crimped to another wire leading to the male harness on the hopper. The female harness clip also had to new wires added on and tracing those lead to series of connections on the back of the machine on the wall. Is this normal? What do you think it was for?
Hopefully the pictures tell the story. I took pictures following the wires from the new crimps.
The pencil in the pics shows where the wires are at.

[wolftalk]

ok, I blew it.  The relay I labeled as the hopper cutoff relay is really the delay relay, the 30 MFD capacitor is right, the black wire on the delay relay coil is right, and there's pretty much nothing good I can say except sorry about that.


you found the actual hopper cutoff relay.  If you can see it when the hopper is installed, see if you can tell if the relay powers when you hold in the reset button at the top/right of the door opening (if that's where it is).  The relay should also power when you have the handle release relay tripped so the handle is free, but don't pull the handle.  When the relay powers, the tilt light should go off.

the cut brown/orange wire is wire 67.  They inserted the door hinge switch into the circuit.   I assume the hinge switch is closed when the door is closed, so your game won't pay if the door is open unless you hold in the reset button.  You can disable that by jumpering the two lugs on the terminal strip they attached the added wire to or removing those crimps/wires and putting the wire 67 ends back together.


note that bally may have made that change ... only way to know is find a 1088-2 schematic (W-1046-1933), and the casino-specific schems are not likely to be found.


the entire hopper cutoff relay circuit is to prevent people from fishing a wire up where the coins drop into the tray and holding the roller that is detecting an ejected coin up (i.e. hopper pulse switches don't make pulses, so the payout counter doesn't step up).   When they did that, the game didn't count ejected coins and emptied the hopper out ... at least until the safety circuit shut the machine down if they weren't savvy enough to count a coin occasionally to recharge the delay relay capacitor.


since your hopper cutoff relay is encased, you can't hold down the armature plate unless the plastic shell comes off.  If you want to bypass it, the easy thing is to jumper the payout relay coil red/blue wire 12 directly to wire 70, then the hopper cutoff circuit doesn't matter ... then pull out the relay so the tilt light doesn't stay on.

[Karloz25]

Thanks Wolftalk for replying...


Last night I test the relay box using the door.. It works. As I tap it, it opens and closes. The relay does not open or close when coins are inserted or handle is released.


I also reconnection the 67 Wire.
No difference. Same issue.


With the cardboard on both coils, the hopper runs for about 60seconds spitting out quarters, then shuts down and amber light comes on.

The cherry switch on the top right dosnt seem to do anything.


Not sure whats causing the hopper NOT to energize.?

------------------------------------
Also how can I test the Coils? They do not seem to open or close on there own.
Do they need replacing?
This is a pic of my unit before I replaced the capacitor; for reference of the 2 Coils that need testing.


The owner did give me a paper with some info, I believed they were referring to the "capacitor" that was bent and beat up, but after replacing that, the same issue continued.
Is there resisters on the hopper that are testable?

Here is the bad capacitor replaced with a new one of the same.
Also the note the guy gave me...


-------------------------------------------------
I tested the COILS on the hopper.
The one on top gave me a OHM reading.
The one on the bottom, gave me no reading, I wiggled it and applied pressure and no reading was given. The bottom coil is the same coil that had the bent capacitor.
Do I need to test it a different way? Is it dead?

[wolftalk]

you need the hopper cutoff relay to be powered or the payout relay coil is disconnected so nothing happens on a winning spin.


below is the schematic chunk that is relevant if you use the reset button (yellow highlight).  The handle release switch powers the relay also when the handle release relay is tripped (orange highlight).


Since your hopper cutoff relay works, that implies the 1N4004 diode is bad, the resistors aren't hooked up right, or resistance is way off.  It looks like they have two 470 ohm resistors in parallel, which would be equivalent to 235 ohms.  That's just slightly off the 47 ohms that it should be :-)


got a 47 ohm 1 watt (or higher watt) resistor laying around you could install?


wire 67 is the blue highlight.  It's in the circuit that keeps the relay powered once the handle release relay switch normally powers it (the reset button is typically used when hopper fills happen).   If you win, the payout relay switch opens, but as long as the hopper pulse switch closes as each coin is ejected, pulses of current get fed down wire 67 and keep the capacitor charged so the hopper cutoff relay stays powered.


assuming you don't have a resistor on hand and want the game to work, just bypass the HCR switch that is disconnecting the payout relay.  Per second schem below, jumper the payout relay coil lug with the red/blue wire on it to wire 70. 

take all the cardboard out of the relays ... that suggestion was not helpful since neither of the relays you put cardboard in were the hopper cutoff relay :-(


there's a 47 ohm 1W resistor on the delay relay you could borrow, and yeah, you shouldn't get infinite ohms measuring that coil.  Make sure you dig you probe tips into the metal lug or solder a little as surface oxidation makes a great insulator. 


if the coil is bad, stick paper between the contacts on the delay relay so the safety time motor doesn't keep running.  That will cause the game to shut down completely after a while during payout.

[Karloz25]

assuming you don't have a resistor on hand and want the game to work, just bypass the HCR switch that is disconnecting the payout relay.  Per second schem below, jumper the payout relay coil lug with the red/blue wire on it to wire 70. 

take all the cardboard out of the relays ... that suggestion was not helpful since neither of the relays you put cardboard in were the hopper cutoff relay :-(

Do you mean jump these two wires together?

[DavidLee]

By adding a cardboard wedge between the armature.
It’s possible that contacts that were normally close made a better connection.
Or we’re out of adjustment and weren’t closing enough to complete the circuit.

Prior to the wedge being installed,
were the contacts inspected for proper function and or cleaned?

[Karloz25]

By adding a cardboard wedge between the armature.
It’s possible that contacts that were normally close made a better connection.
Or we’re out of adjustment and weren’t closing enough to complete the circuit.

Prior to the wedge being installed,
were the contacts inspected for proper function and or cleaned?

Thank you davidlee for helping out.
I briefly checked them for functionality, but I haven’t thoroughly cleaned them. What would be the easiest way to clean them? Do they need to be taken apart and each leaf cleaned one by one? With what chemical or abrasions?

[DavidLee]

For now a business card or card stock the same thickness works.
Needs to have a little tooth, not a smooth surface. Cut into 1/4" strips or 1/2" then fold in half.

Denatured alcohol can be used  for cleaning.
After the cleaning fluid, its best to dry clean one more time. As some cleaners will leave a residue.

Machines that sit for long periods of time will build up corrosion / oxidization on the contacts,
Much like copper and brass changing from bright shinny to a dull finish.

   

[wolftalk]

assuming you don't have a resistor on hand and want the game to work, just bypass the HCR switch that is disconnecting the payout relay.  Per second schem below, jumper the payout relay coil lug with the red/blue wire on it to wire 70. 

Do you mean jump these two wires together?

yes, tho jumpering at the hopper cutoff relay would probably require soldering wires since there's not a lot of space in there.


it may be easier to jumper on the payout relay ... the other end of the red/blue wire ... it's easy to attach an alligator clip jumper there and find a convenient wire 70 spot to connect to.

[Karloz25]

assuming you don't have a resistor on hand and want the game to work, just bypass the HCR switch that is disconnecting the payout relay.  Per second schem below, jumper the payout relay coil lug with the red/blue wire on it to wire 70. 

Do you mean jump these two wires together?

yes, tho jumpering at the hopper cutoff relay would probably require soldering wires since there's not a lot of space in there.


it may be easier to jumper on the payout relay ... the other end of the red/blue wire ... it's easy to attach an alligator clip jumper there and find a convenient wire 70 spot to connect to.

I just connected a jumper cable from the coil lug to the 70 Orange on the coin acceptance switch on the door.
HCR left attached.


Powered up the machine. Added coins and hit cherries, no payout.
Weird thing is, with the jumper in play, Now after a handle pull, and reels spin and stop, a bell sounds and the handle is ready for pull again. So it’s gives a credit after play, With the jumper wire attached. Should I look for another orange 70?

[DavidLee]

Check a couple of things.
Inspect the payout relay top left on the back of the hopper.
Check the contacts for proper adjustment manually activate it to see if contacts are operating properly.
Might as well clean the contacts while you have it out.


While the hopper is out, manually operate the step up unit bottom right of the machine.
One plunger steps up and the other is to release. Theses aren’t real accessible, but it can be done.
Inspect for loose wires. Leave in the reset position when finished.


Photo of payout step up unit.

[wolftalk]

I just connected a jumper cable from the coil lug to the 70 Orange on the coin acceptance switch on the door.
HCR left attached.


Powered up the machine. Added coins and hit cherries, no payout.
Weird thing is, with the jumper in play, Now after a handle pull, and reels spin and stop, a bell sounds and the handle is ready for pull again. So it’s gives a credit after play, With the jumper wire attached. Should I look for another orange 70?


 

your turn for the oops.  That's not wire 70 on the coin switch, it's wire 74-1 ... tho it does look orange/brown rather than orange/green.  In any case, it won't work.


there's a couple pieces of wire 70 in your pic ... one is attached to the coin diverter coil below/left of the coin switch ... if you jump to that, make sure you don't short to the metal on the coin door. 


the handle release coil inside the cabinet may be easy to reach, or clip directly on the 50V fuse holder lug.

the bell may ring on any win or just certain ones ... that's one of the common differences between the versions of a machine.  The handle release relay tripping may be a side effect of where your jumper is ... tho it's not obvious from the 1088 schematic.  See what happens after your jumper is moved and you get the payout working.

[DavidLee]

The 1088 has a green / white wire in the top box.
If it is connected to the bell circuit, the bell will ring on every payout.
Otherwise the bell rings on jackpot bars and sevens only.