Copying & sharing .bin files

[gwslotting]

Someone, Ron ??   reminded us not to post, exchange, copy .bin Eprom files through NLG, not even through PM.  We could lose our membership. But hinted that outside NLG, there are plenty of channels to do that. I respect that.


http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=3220.msg16651#msg16651


I am just curious.  Based on the following article


.".......Copyright (software) protects against copying, but not against independent development. Copyrights subsist for the author’s life plus 50 years after the author’s death or, in the case of works made for hire, 75 years from the year of first publication."


https://www.sgrlaw.com/briefings/474/#:~:text=Copyright%20protects%20against%20copying%2C%20but,the%20year%20of%20first%20publication.


So those of us that have 40 to 50 year old slot machines, isn't it  almost time to be able to share EPROM .bin files.
How many "author plus 50 years" are still alive, and if they are, how does one go about checking.
Would the Copyright office have records?
Or do we contact the company that take over those "brand".
I own 1970 Aristocrat and Seeburg Williams.  Those source code inside their chips are 50 years old....Assuming they file for copyright

[Heihachi_73]

Not directed to anyone in particular, but for preservation purposes I'd suggest getting in touch with MAMEdev. The MAME framework is much more than emulating games, it can also be used as a placeholder for ROM dumps and identification to help restore dead machines back to factory standards (MAME also documents part numbers, checksum hashes, resistor/capacitor/crystal values etc.)

In the case of non-video reel slots, while they have roughly a zero percent chance of being emulated (although it is still possible to digitally simulate steppers/optics etc. as long as the appropriate reel art has been digitized), the digital ROM data can be backed up for literally decades, well beyond the original service life of the original chips (especially with old windowed EPROMs that might be good one day and half empty the next due to not having a protective label for three decades, and other chips like "suicidal" devices containing read-protected data like those on certain VLC slots - I'm sure VLC owners would really appreciate the ability to play their long lost favorites again, well after the protection dongle (or whatever it was) self-destructed).

This is especially important for machines which have become extremely rare due to the vast majority being destroyed, lost or converted into other machines.

[rickhunter]

Any slot software classifies under both works made for hire (as it is not a person who published the software, but a company who paid a person to do it for them), and also could be argued that they contain trade secrets, which would fall under an even longer term.  If the company goes belly up and their assets are not bought by anyone, they would have gone to their largest creditor, so you need to find out who owns the rights to it.  For sure if the slot manufacturer is still doing business or has acquired the rights of the defunct company, then they are the copyright holders.  So, if you have an Odyssey slot machine, IGT owns their copyrights, so asking for bins or software for that would most likely trigger copyright letters from IGT to the offending party.  Because the issue requires extensive research, and because the site does not want to be in constant litigation with corporations and their lawyers, the general rule is to not open a can of worms.  The site has received these letters more than once due to the "bin" issue, so it is now a policy not to discuss in public, even if you suspect that it is ok based on your research, because at the end of the day, the site's operator is the one who gets stuck with the bill, and it is not fair to him.

[knagl]

This site is an easy target for lawyers to send "cease and desist" letters to, and the big slot companies have lawyers on retainer who can do so at a moment's notice.

Even if there's merit in a claim that "Company X doesn't care about software they wrote thirty years ago", all it takes is one company that decides they do care and it potentially could get the site shut down.

There are dozens of other ways to connect outside of NLG and do whatever you please there, such as your personal e-mail. Conducting any business that even could have the appearance of being improper away from this site is a way to ensure this site survives on the internet as a resource for folks for years to come.

[Heihachi_73]

And yes, company X actually do care about what they wrote 30 years ago, otherwise they wouldn't keep re-releasing "classic" games on new hardware. Sometimes though, only the name or theme is recycled and the original game design is scrapped, but the copyright is still there regardless.

[Ron (r273)]

Mark, I would check with Joey as he has the last word on posting or exchanging files on this site. For my 2 cents worth, I would not take a chance to publicizing you are actively buying or selling or trading them. 

[shortrackskater]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. 

You perfectly articulated everything that all NLG members need to be aware of, in order to keep our site healthy and happy.

[jay]

For those of us old enough to remember Napster (MP3 song sharing). No content was stored at Napster. They unfortunately lost every court case on the basis that they facilitated piracy.
For all intents and purposes it was just an index and you pulled from peer to peer and Napster themselves did not commit piracy.


SO... at NLG we don't even want to list who might what BIN or why. If we know someone who might have BINs we are using the benefit of the doubt that they own the original software for a machine they own and have simply backed it up.


Following Naptster there was a site that was collecting CDs - you send them all your CDs - this then expanded their catalog - which gave them the right to play the song.
The theory is it is no different than if you lent your CD to a buddy. He had it so you could not listen to it at the same time.
The way the site worked is that only 1 person could play the song at a time. The fundamentals is that someone had already bought and paid for the CD, and the artist had been paid.


However with 100,000+ members there was the likely hood that they had more than one copy of the same song and with physical possession of your CDs they could prove it.
With the advent of Rap and song sampling where an artist could use a vinyl record to add content to a new song a 3sec clip could be used without copyright offense.The theory is it is no different than if you lent your CD to a buddy. He had it so you could not listen to it at the same time.


Cody is the same concept as Naptster for video but it uses bit torrent and pulls fragments from multiple locations so it is much harder to nail individuals.
So hard to find out the source is the fact that the big content providers have gone after the resellers of the "cody boxes" which are really mini Linux platforms pre-loaded with the Cody software, and beyond a buffer there is no content actually stored on your personal box.

[gwslotting]

Thank You all long time senior members for the discussion. As an amateur musician, I totally understand the complication of copyrighted  pop music of my era: 50s, 60s, 70s...Even classical music from the 1800 still have some form of restrictions if they are performed in public!  It's just mind blowing when it comes to content inside an IC chip.. Yes, the concept of lawyers working under contingency means anyone can sue with nothing to lose.... The lawyer just goes after deep pockets....

[rickhunter]

What is the difference between the contents inside an IC and music?  They are both authored/composed by a person to perform a function.  Software and music are essentially different forms of art, thus the same copyright laws should apply.

[gwslotting]

Rickhunter, agree. But it is still difficult to comprehend.  Putting NLG policy aside, an old style slot macihine/arcade game using earlier IC chips, will not work, along with hundreds of components that die with it, along with its "trade secret" , It  depends on restoration enthusiasts, such as some of the very technical senior members in this group,  somehow reproducing the content of the chip if available. I wonder if the creators of these machines intend to not have their machines turn into collectables for next generation to appreciate.


A music score, in most cases, will not deterioate to a point that the piece will be lost forever.  Those that want to enjoy that piece will somehow still find it somewhere to listen to it.

[jay]

When Nortel broke up, the most valuable asset was patents.
Subsequently the "Patent Trolls" went after Blackberry, Cisco. Mitel, Panasonic, Vodaphone, etc (anyone with deep pockets) to sue them for patent infringement.
Broadcomm - makers of built in modems, wifi devices got hit pretty hard....
Copyright is an ugly business.....

[Heihachi_73]

Yes, one major problem with digital media is that most media will never remain stable for hundreds of years; the copyright period could even outlast some forms of media tenfold. Things like EPROMs (the E means erasable, and yes, they can erase themselves over time, especially if the protective sticker has fallen off), floppy disks, cassette tapes (think Commodore 64) and even CDs/DVDs etc. don't hold a candle to the lifespan of other physical media like books. Even genuinely read-only formats like mask ROM can be destroyed if not handled correctly. And then there's the hardware problem - the original hardware isn't designed to last to infinity and beyond either, it only takes the wrong capacitor to dry out, pop or vent itself and take out the MOSFETs, CPU and RAM with it.

Strictly following the rules, you would have to wait until the year 2100 and beyond just for the original arcade version of Pac-Man to fall into the public domain (let's say 1980 plus 120 years to be safe). And that's only the golden era, you would have to wait another twenty years for the PlayStation 2/Xbox era, and another twenty for the Nintendo Switch and PS5.

[shortrackskater]

I just edited the hell out of a post I should have just deleted. Usually our eagle-eye members flag them but this wasn't.
LOTS of replies for a new member's request to COPY BIN FILES since "I have a eprom burner... etc." Obviously he didn't read any of the TOS before posting.
Links were even posted showing various file types...
So I probably seem like a asshole to some, but I deleted what was necessary and added the RED words I got from rickhunter.
The only "safe" reply was from Barry showing eBay item numbers, so that was left in.
This gets frustrating because I know members just want their stuff working!

[gwslotting]

Many constructive reminders and good stories here, especially for us new members.


Here's another issue the same participants may be interested to share.  I put it as another topic. If too sensitive, moderator, please just delete my entire post there.


(...link pending)