Author Topic: SEGA / mechanical slot - payout issue, and GENERAL issues/info (Read 21372 times)

shortrackskater · « **on:** July 21, 2015, 10:03:20 AM »

I'm working on a Mills mechanism. (Okay it's really a SEGA )
I'm a novice with mechanical slots. Originally it would not pay out at all. I realized the safety slide wasn't releasing. It would work if I manually pressed it with some force so I spent some time cleaning the entire area. It looked like a burr had built up where the payout "finger" pushes away to release the slide so I lightly filed both surfaces. With that and replacing the finger spring, it was able to release the slide at one end and also allow the finger to go into the disk, next to the reels.
Here's the problem:
It only pays on one or two cherries, where there's the hole in the disk. My photo shows a three plum "win" but the finger doesn't line up to initiate the pay out. It looks almost like it would, if I bent it or moved it one spot over. I don't want to start bending and filing too much here yet! Can anyone fill me in?
Update - I can't bend that finger. Otherwise it would not line up for the cherry payout. It's seems as if the reel disk things are set up so that it could never pay out except for cherry wins.

Jackpot · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2015, 10:37:59 AM »

Man, you have the strangest reel disks that I have ever seen! But I think they are ok, but those notches in the disks have been ground in there by someone for some reason. You see the lever that comes in under the 3 reel disks, that lever just holds the three disks from moving around while the reel kicker on the other side of the machine is moving to grab the three disks and kick them off. So someone has ground the disks in more so the lever can go in further then needed for some reason? Anyway that is not you question so lets get back at it here.
The safety slide: You need a safety slide as a spacer yes, but you don't need it to work. What I do is pull the safety slide forward until the safety slide lever under the mechanism will snap over and lock the safety slide and hold it forward, then I tye-wire it so it can never release the safety slide again. I tye wire the lever over so it can not release the safety slide to snap back again. Soo much for the safety slide.....
Now what is going one with the payouts? not sure what you mean when talking about bending, maybe you are saying that when you have three plums that the plum finger is not lined up with the plum holes in the reel disks? Is that what is going on?? Here lets see if this helps, the outside finger is for cherries pays, the next finger in is for oranges, the third finger in is for plums, forth finger in is for bells, the 5th and last finger in is for the bars or jackpot. Does that help? The disks: holes that are out to the very outside of the disks are for cherries, holes that are all the way in closest to the center are for jackpots, all the rest are spaced for the other payout fingers.
OK, knowing this information try to explain what is wrong one more time to me if you would, as I am a slow learner when it come to seeing this problem and what is wrong. Send me any photos that you want, I will be happy to help you clear this problem up.
Jackpot
Rodger Knutson

Http://www.coinslots.com
Rodger@coinslots.com

Jackpot · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2015, 11:01:18 AM »

Quote from: shortrackskater on July 21, 2015, 10:03:20 AM

I'm working on a Mills mechanism. I'm a novice with mechanical slots. Originally it would not pay out at all. I realized the safety slide wasn't releasing. It would work if I manually pressed it with some force so I spent some time cleaning the entire area. It looked like a burr had built up where the payout "finger" pushes away to release the slide so I lightly filed both surfaces. With that and replacing the finger spring, it was able to release the slide at one end and also allow the finger to go into the disk, next to the reels.
Here's the problem:
It only pays on one or two cherries, where there's the hole in the disk. My photo shows a three plum "win" but the finger doesn't line up to initiate the pay out. It looks almost like it would, if I bent it or moved it one spot over. I don't want to start bending and filing too much here yet! Can anyone fill me in?
Update - I can't bend that finger. Otherwise it would not line up for the cherry payout. It's seems as if the reel disk things are set up so that it could never pay out except for cherry wins.

By looking at your photos again and reading what your saying, I see and wonder about a couple more things. What kind of machine is this? Is it a hi top with 7's? I see your disks are slotted and not round holes, so you have a reel bundle for a later game with maybe extra pays, this is one reason for the slotted holes and not the round ones. Also it sounds like maybe all the payout fingers are off about the same on you machine right, not just the cherries hole. If they (the vertical fingers) are all off about the same amounts, it could be one or a few things, maybe the finger guide frame which holds the vertical fingers is mounted wrong (very unlikely), wrong finger guide but this would be a first, wrong reel bundle or desk set for your vertical fingers set? (Maybe). I bet this is why someone was trying to modify the disks, where the lever holds the disks for kick off. Maybe someone trying to fix something that they knew nothing about and that would explain the grinding that I see. OK so all the fingers are off by about the same right? So now what to do? Can you get or boarrow another reel bundle with round holes insted of slots to try on your machine somewhere? Just to see if this corrects all these problems. You run into everything you can think of when working on these old machines, but this is a new one for me. So I am guessing that this maybe has maybe a wrong reel bundle set in it, but i am really not even sure of this yet. I think I might have a slotted reel bundle set around here somewhere maybe. If I can fine it I'll try it in a machine that I know uses the round holes and see what happens, maybe all the vertical fingers will all be off by just bit or the same amount for payouts. I don't know for sure, and I want to see if this might be the answer to your hell here.
Jackpot

shortrackskater · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2015, 11:41:04 AM »

Okay ... first I apologize for fibbing a little here! I was afraid if I said SEGA that no one would ever answer. But I know the mechanism is essentially a Mills... however there's one more thing. It's a ...uh... Skill Stop and probably a very early one. Here's more pictures... I'll post back in a sec and reply.

shortrackskater · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2015, 12:43:43 PM »

Okay I tied off the safety slide... played it... and now - each time, no matter what the symbols are, it pays [big]two[/big] on the NEXT pull!
I'm lost. I'll re-read your replies though and see if I can sink some more info in!
I'm trying to compare this to my (actual!) Mills M head mechanism. It's throwing me off more...
I thought the safety slide must release on each win? On my M head with a three orange win, the slide released while the arm was NOT going through the reel bundle. On the Sega it seems to be "locked" for all other wins other than the cherries.

Jackpot · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2015, 01:04:20 PM »

Quote from: shortrackskater on July 23, 2015, 11:41:04 AM

Okay ... first I apologize for fibbing a little here! I was afraid if I said SEGA that no one would ever answer. But I know the mechanism is essentially a Mills... however there's one more thing. It's a ...uh... Skill Stop and probably a very early one. Here's more pictures... I'll post back in a sec and reply.

LOL, now I can understand a little more...., Sega, yes not a Mills, but parts stamped with original Mills dies but some different parts. So this really helps a lot here. Now I think you should have the right reel bundle. Sega's vertical fingers set up can be different then the Mills set up. Sega sometimes uses a few extra vertical fingers. When using a Sega mechanism in a mills machine, sometimes you need to pull these extra vertical fingers out. The extra ones are thinner then the regular fingers. So, that being said what is the problem here, things are getting stranger now as to why these vertical payout fingers are not lining up with the payout disks, payout sensing holes.

Jackpot

Note:
I just seen your post about the safety slide, and now it's paying two coins on each play with the safety slide locked open. That is strange and maybe a Sega thing. You can do this with a Mills with no problem, but maybe not with a Sega as you made a problem by doing this. I don't have a Sega here right now to be sure this will work on them. So if your safety slide is working OK, maybe just not tie it right now until we figure out the payout problems your having. I think I am going to have to ponder this for a bit and get back later. Do you know how to set up a jackpot pay, stop and hold the clock fan right after kick off, line up the reels to show a 3 bars and then let the fan go. Try doing this so you can see if it will payout out on a jackpot, and see if all the payout slides have moved in to pay a jackpot. Then see if the inside vertical finger has in fact, gone through all three disks in the hole closest to the axle, see if this works, and works OK. We need to start somewhere and this will tell us a lot.

Jackpot

Jackpot · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2015, 01:11:07 PM »

Quote from: shortrackskater on July 23, 2015, 12:43:43 PM

Okay I tied off the safety slide... played it... and now - each time, no matter what the symbols are, it pays [big]two[/big] on the NEXT pull!
I'm lost. I'll re-read your replies though and see if I can sink some more info in!
I'm trying to compare this to my (actual!) Mills M head mechanism. It's throwing me off more...
I thought the safety slide must release on each win? On my M head with a three orange win, the slide released while the arm was NOT going through the reel bundle. On the Sega it seems to be "locked" for all other wins other than the cherries.

Can you move the slides ok, they need to be free to move and sometime a slide stack can be pinched and none of the slides might not be able to move freely with just the help of the slide springs. when you play just the mechanism and look at the slides, they should be pushed out and then snap back in a little, are they doing that ok? Stop: Try that jackpot Pay and then we will know is the slide stack is working ok.
JP

shortrackskater · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2015, 01:21:14 PM »

I'm going to try answering in order here...but I've got anther question.
First... just playing the M head has helped me a bit.

Since the M head payed out on three oranges without the safety slide vertical finger moving, I'm assuming that means that the other finger (for the payout) does the job? It would have to.

I removed the ties holding the safety slide open and now it's back to paying on cherries only.
Hang on... I MUST eat lunch... have to work this evening at 3 so there may be a slight delay. But I WILL get back tonight at the latest.

On this Sega... I can line up wins combinations easily since it "freespins" until I push the buttons. What I do is just line up the symbols (back door off) and then press the buttons. After the third button, a solenoid releases the fan.
Just lined up a three bell win and one of the vertical fingers goes all the way through...but safety slide closed.
Finally I can remove the mechanism and manually release each slide... they all seem free... coins fall out each time. Darn... I have to get to work.
I'll be back.

Jackpot · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2015, 02:23:05 PM »

Quote from: shortrackskater on July 23, 2015, 01:21:14 PM

I'm going to try answering in order here...but I've got anther question.
First... just playing the M head has helped me a bit.

Since the M head payed out on three oranges without the safety slide vertical finger moving, I'm assuming that means that the other finger (for the payout) does the job? It would have to.

I removed the ties holding the safety slide open and now it's back to paying on cherries only.
Hang on... I MUST eat lunch... have to work this evening at 3 so there may be a slight delay. But I WILL get back tonight at the latest.

On this Sega... I can line up wins combinations easily since it "freespins" until I push the buttons. What I do is just line up the symbols (back door off) and then press the buttons. After the third button, a solenoid releases the fan.
Just lined up a three bell win and one of the vertical fingers goes all the way through...but safety slide closed.

OK, great, so it payed out the jackpot right? or did the safety slide pervent the payout? The safety slide is only a anti cheat item. If you bang the machine around the safety slide should snap closed to prevent payout, or if you try spooning it by going up the payout cup it should snap closed, it just shuts off any chance at payouts until the game is played again, that is why it is called the safety slide and why you can wire it open with no effect. That is a cool skill stop item, never seen a Sega with that. I take it then if you don't push the skill stop buttons, the reels will not lock right? Next try lining up the three bells and see if the next payout finger in line will go through all three disks for the bell payout.
Jackpot

shortrackskater · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2015, 02:54:18 PM »

Quote from: Jackpot on July 23, 2015, 02:23:05 PM

Quote from: shortrackskater on July 23, 2015, 01:21:14 PM
I'm going to try answering in order here...but I've got anther question.
First... just playing the M head has helped me a bit.

Since the M head payed out on three oranges without the safety slide vertical finger moving, I'm assuming that means that the other finger (for the payout) does the job? It would have to.

I removed the ties holding the safety slide open and now it's back to paying on cherries only.
Hang on... I MUST eat lunch... have to work this evening at 3 so there may be a slight delay. But I WILL get back tonight at the latest.

On this Sega... I can line up wins combinations easily since it "freespins" until I push the buttons. What I do is just line up the symbols (back door off) and then press the buttons. After the third button, a solenoid releases the fan.
Just lined up a three bell win and one of the vertical fingers goes all the way through...but safety slide closed.

OK, great, so it payed out the jackpot right? or did the safety slide pervent the payout? The safety slide is only a anti cheat item. If you bang the machine around the safety slide should snap closed to prevent payout, or if you try spooning it by going up the payout cup it should snap closed, it just shuts off any chance at payouts until the game is played again, that is why it is called the safety slide and why you can wire it open with no effect. That is a cool skill stop item, never seen a Sega with that. I take it then if you don't push the skill stop buttons, the reels will not lock right? Next try lining up the three bells and see if the next payout finger in line will go through all three disks for the bell payout.
Jackpot

No ... the safety slide is preventing payouts other than cherries. The vertical fingers seem to go through the plates where they should but nothing else happens. Must leave for work... darn! I'd rather play with this oddity.

Jackpot · « **Reply #10 on:** July 23, 2015, 09:41:10 PM »

Quote from: shortrackskater on July 23, 2015, 02:54:18 PM

Quote from: Jackpot on July 23, 2015, 02:23:05 PM
Quote from: shortrackskater on July 23, 2015, 01:21:14 PM
I'm going to try answering in order here...but I've got anther question.
First... just playing the M head has helped me a bit.

Since the M head payed out on three oranges without the safety slide vertical finger moving, I'm assuming that means that the other finger (for the payout) does the job? It would have to.

I removed the ties holding the safety slide open and now it's back to paying on cherries only.
Hang on... I MUST eat lunch... have to work this evening at 3 so there may be a slight delay. But I WILL get back tonight at the latest.

On this Sega... I can line up wins combinations easily since it "freespins" until I push the buttons. What I do is just line up the symbols (back door off) and then press the buttons. After the third button, a solenoid releases the fan.
Just lined up a three bell win and one of the vertical fingers goes all the way through...but safety slide closed.

OK, great, so it payed out the jackpot right? or did the safety slide pervent the payout? The safety slide is only a anti cheat item. If you bang the machine around the safety slide should snap closed to prevent payout, or if you try spooning it by going up the payout cup it should snap closed, it just shuts off any chance at payouts until the game is played again, that is why it is called the safety slide and why you can wire it open with no effect. That is a cool skill stop item, never seen a Sega with that. I take it then if you don't push the skill stop buttons, the reels will not lock right? Next try lining up the three bells and see if the next payout finger in line will go through all three disks for the bell payout.
Jackpot

No ... the safety slide is preventing payouts other than cherries. The vertical fingers seem to go through the plates where they should but nothing else happens. Must leave for work... darn! I'd rather play with this oddity.

OK, then I would make sure the safety slide is locked open again by moving it forward all the way, you can do this from under the mechanism at the hole where the coins drop out, you can use your finger and shove the safety slide all the way forward and you will see the arm under the mechanism lock behind the safety slide from under the mechanism also, once it is locked open tie that arm over so it can not release this slide again. I run a tie wire around the arm and through the spring, then through the springs cotter key and tie it tight, the wire is hard to see and the arm can't move anymore so the safety slide will stay locked open. Then try doing the payouts again starting with the three bars, then bells, then plums, etc., now you should get a payouts as the safety slide can't close to prevent the coins from being payed out.
Jackpot

shortrackskater · « **Reply #11 on:** July 23, 2015, 11:20:50 PM »

Hi! Back from work... ugh! Evening jobs are a pain sometimes...
Okay as for the that slide... I did this in the beginning. I tied off the slide and set up various payouts. None paid (including cherries) but the next pull produced a "false win" of two coins. This happens on every spin, win or not. I wasn't sure what to do after this point.

Jackpot · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2015, 11:45:05 PM »

Quote from: shortrackskater on July 23, 2015, 11:20:50 PM

Hi! Back from work... ugh! Evening jobs are a pain sometimes...
Okay as for the that slide... I did this in the beginning. I tied off the slide and set up various payouts. None paid (including cherries) but the next pull produced a "false win" of two coins. This happens on every spin, win or not. I wasn't sure what to do after this point.

If, or when you have the jackpot or 3 bells set, and you see that the finger does go through all 3 reel disks, and I assume that all the payout slides go all the way in, right, but no payout? Now look under the mechanism and see what is stopping the payout, look in the hole where the coins fall out of the mechanism. if it is closed off and you can't see in there, then it is a problem with the safety slide and if you move it and the coins should fall out, if not the safety slide, then you should be able to look all the way inside and see inside the holes for coins in all the slides where the coins should be. maybe there is no coins left to drop out but if you have a jackpot set up, you should be able to see from the hole in the bottom of the mechanism, all the way up to where you see part of the bottom of the coin tube.
Soo... what did you see?
Jackpot

The Fatman · « **Reply #13 on:** July 24, 2015, 03:34:11 PM »

I would look to see if the arms for 3 bells go thru the index discs, if so, does the bottom of the arms move the release levers off the slides. You can chack this by holding the fan and than set the bells up and hit the stops, (which are the first ones I have ever seen... European machine). Before releasing the fan, move the selector arm back and forth thru the holes and while doing this, see if it moves the release arms away from the slides. This should tell you if the winning combination will pay. As far as the 2 coin pay everytime, do the same but you have to make sure when the arm goes thru the disc, it doesnt release the slides before it should. Sometimes they will be out of adjustment and even it it hits the index disc, it will still release the slide. Havent worked on a Sega since the late 70's.
Hope it helps .... thats all I know
Dave F

shortrackskater · « **Reply #14 on:** July 24, 2015, 04:46:20 PM »

Okay I cycled the machine with the three bell payout. Removed the mechanism... released the safety slide and two coins came out. The arm is going through the reel bundle and I followed that down and pressed hard on it and 12 more coins released. It should have been 18 but at least some came out.
I'm just wondering if all this needs to come out and get a good cleaning? I've never taken apart one of these.
Sorry for short answer here... I"m headed to the Orange County Fair to see the Steve Miller band! I'll be back Saturday afternoon.
Thanks for the help jackpot and fatman too.

The Fatman · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2015, 05:13:37 PM »

I hope you get a chance to "Fly like n Eagle" while you there ... as long as someone who isnt gets to drive home... enjoy... got to be awesome
Dave

The Fatman · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2015, 05:15:27 PM »

Back to the issue at hand ... If the timing for the cycle is too fast, it can lock things down before it gets a chance to alloy the levers to be removed from the slides.
Something to look at.
Dave

Jackpot · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2015, 05:24:43 PM »

Quote from: shortrackskater on July 24, 2015, 04:46:20 PM

Okay I cycled the machine with the three bell payout. Removed the mechanism... released the safety slide and two coins came out. The arm is going through the reel bundle and I followed that down and pressed hard on it and 12 more coins released. It should have been 18 but at least some came out.
I'm just wondering if all this needs to come out and get a good cleaning? I've never taken apart one of these.
Sorry for short answer here... I"m headed to the Orange County Fair to see the Steve Miller band! I'll be back Saturday afternoon.
Thanks for the help jackpot and fatman too.

Have fun at the show. So.., now your on your way with fixing this problem your having. By pushing harder on the finger you got it to release the rest of the slides for proper payout. Now you need to see why this vertical arm did not move all the horizontal fingers over enough to clear the slides and allowing the slides to move in for propper payout. It could be weak finger springs, or the main slide holding bar that goes in behind the slides on the inside of the mechanism to hold all the slides forward, while the fingers can do their job during payout, this bar moves out after the fingers have had enough time to move in for payout position. Then the bar moves out of the way from holding all the slides forward, and allows all the slides all snap back, some being stopped for none payout and others going in all the way if there is a smaller payout. I believe this slide holding bar or lever, is you fifth click. The first 3 clicks are the reels indexing, 4th are the fingers releasing, and the 5th are the slides moving in for payout. So if you look at the inside (clock side) of your slides and to the back of them before the 5 click, you will see this lever moving out of the way and causing the 5th click and payout. If for some reason this lever is not going behind the slides as you first pull the handle, you will have problems. There is a way to adjust how far your slides move forward also if needed. If you get a constent, 2 coin payout, then you may have to bend the foot of the outside vertical finger until you get it adjusted right. The finger is cut down thinner at the bottom where the foot is, and it is easier to bend there by wedging something in there to hold the bottom of the finger while you force the top in or out for a bending adjustment.
Jackpot

shortrackskater · « **Reply #18 on:** July 25, 2015, 06:51:58 PM »

I'm a little confused... sometimes I just need to play with my mechanism and then I see what you mean.
I did find a bar that is held with one screw and it was preventing that last slide, for higher payouts.
I just loosened it a bit and pushed the bar more parallel with what it's mounted on and that last slide activated.
Now it's payout out properly, at least for the bells... BUT...those vertical fingers aren't pushing hard enough to release the slides. I don't think it's the fingers though. I think it's the slides. If I press firmly they release properly. Hope this makes sense.
(Oh... Dave and Jackpot... Steve Miller was GREAT!!! - lots of 60 - 70 year old pot smoking hippies there!)

The Fatman · « **Reply #19 on:** July 25, 2015, 07:17:45 PM »

What a great time ....If you can stop the clock before the final click, you should see the release levers should move very freely like the fingers were pushing the away from the back sides of the slides. If not .... keep the clock locked up and look deeply into where the drag could be. Sometimes the adjustments are done too tight and it locks down arms that should move freely. Also the post that holds them could be crusty-rusty and or bent causing the arms not to move as required. I mentioned the timing, I had an issue where the timing ares moved faster than they should and before the y gave the unit to process the discs and the arm position, it passes it and locks them out. and not allowing them to move to release the slides. Send me a PM and I will call you to try to get this right for you. I am in the Philly area.
Dave

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Author Topic: SEGA / mechanical slot - payout issue, and GENERAL issues/info (Read 21372 times)