Bally 873 - Payout problem [Resolved]

[essmeier]

I've got a Bally 873 five line machine and everything works properly, except that it will not pay on three plums.  That's true regardless of which payline they're on; three plums never pays out.

All other payouts work as they should and aside from this annoying little problem, the machine has no other issues.

What am I looking for, and where should I be looking?

Thanks,

Charlie

EDIT:  Just to save people time, I'll post the solution here:

The problem was a misadjusted switch on the plum relay.  That relay is part of the hopper assembly; it's mounted to the base plate directly underneath the hopper itself and on my machine, was not labeled.  It sits there all alone.  It's hard to remove without an offset screwdriver, but if you remove the top screw holding the pay board in place, you can fold the payboard down to get access to the plum relay.  Then you can remove the two screws holding the relay in place and pull it out of the hopper mechanism to adjust the switches.  There's no way to adjust it while it's mounted.

Pays every time now.

[zinda]

Start with the reel wiper boards to make sure you don't have a broken or loose wire running between the contacts. If you have a complete circuit from 1st board to last board then check the out going wire on board 1 that goes to the beau plug,

Check the beau plug sockets and check the contacts to make sure that the circuit is complete through the pin connections. Sometimes the problem goes away just by pulling the top assembly out and sliding it back in and out a few times,

Then check that the wire running from the beau plug running down to the lower beau plug it good and still is making a complete circuit. Then check the pins on the plugs again and make sure it has a good connection and is completing the circuit through that lower plug.
 
 Most times you'll find the wire has lost contact at one of these pionts I mentioned and is usually an wasy fix with just a wire strippers and soldering iron.

If you still haven't found any broken or loose wires and have a complete circuit going all the way down to the back side of the lower beau plug, check the wire from the beau plug to the pay out board connection. If it's still making a complete circuit then you need to make sure it's on the correct tab that will pay out. Some need jumper wires running to another spot on the back side of the pay out wiper board. if you still haven't seen any bad wires, try playing it. you may have solved it by just moving the wires around a little bit. If you didn't see anything that breaks the circuit and you still have no pay out, recheck your reel wipers again to make sure that the 60v line is feeding the circuit on the 3rd reel. It will have a jumper wire that should be feeding all payouts except the cherries, cherries will have a 60v wire starting on reel 1, that's not going to effect this situation.

Since I can't see how it's wired you'll have to make sure that the pins are all clean and the wiper fingers are making contact on all pins. Making sure that the wiring is not loosing contact due to the blades divisions that create zones on each wiper board. but if it worked before and just developed this problem this isn't going to apply to your problem.

[essmeier]

Thanks for the reply.  I'll look into your suggestions.  It has worked before; it quit after a longer-than-usual period of time in which the machine wasn't played.

I had a one year warranty from the seller when I bought it, and they twice fixed this very problem during that time.  It's a problem that just seems to pop up over and over, and it's always just the three plums.

Charlie

[rdaniel]

Have you thought of contacting the seller and asking him what he did to repair the problem. Maybe he will be reasonable and give you a hint or two.

[essmeier]

I did that after he repaired it the last time and got an answer along the lines of, "Well, I just sort of went through everything."  He's several hundred miles away, since retired, and I no longer have contact information on him, so that's kind of a dead end for me.

When I find the time, I'll take a detailed look at it.  I just needed to know where to start, not knowing if I should start with the reels or at the hopper.

Charlie

[essmeier]

While searching the Web yesterday, I found a pdf file somewhere that offered troubleshooting tips for Bally EM slots.  Oddly enough, in the "no pays" section of the document, this specific problem was addressed:

Problem
Three plums don’t pay but all else do.

Solution
1. Check the female beau plug that the hopper plugs into.
The hopper has on its plug two long prongs that guide the
entry of the hopper. The top prong sometimes pushes the
corresponding female receptacle back through'the beau plug.
Thus, the prong doesn't connect with the receptacle and
make contact. Merely push the receptacle back into positon
on the female beau plug. Now the prong can enter and make
contact.
2. Follow the "14 pay" wire to the set of contacts in the
middle of the hopper behind the payboard. Clean and/or
adjust those contacts. See if the armature is in place on
top of the solenoid.
3. Check and see if the "14 pay" wire is broken off the
payboard.
4. Check the "14 pay" contact on the hopper payboard to
see if the finger is actually touching the "14" contact on
the payboard. Sometimes the zero stop rubber barrel has
become so worn or vibrated loose so that the plastic disc
is returning (resetting) too much. It’s resetting so far
back that the finger just can’t reach the contact. On some
machines the 14 contact is wired onto the "14" contact at
the top of the payboard. This might be the only function
of the top rack on the fingers on the plastic disc and this
explains why plums don’t pay but all other symbols do pay.
5. Check for a broken or loose wire attached to the
solenoid and switch that is in the hopper about in the
middle of the hopper on the floor of the hopper.

I guess this is a common problem on these.  I'll have a look and if I manage to fix it, I'll post the results here.

Charlie

[JanGbg]

I had a simular problem with my Bally Circus some years ago, but with the bells. I found that the the holes in the index wheel was too deep. I solved the problem by taping the hole so it was not so deep.

[OldReno]

Look and see if there are any relays mounted on the right hand side of the 3rd reel wiper.
One of them may be a plum relay.
You could try to set up plums, and then push down on the relay to see what happens....
You should be able to reach it with a long pencil or chopstick.

[zinda]

I had a simular problem with my Bally Circus some years ago, but with the bells. I found that the the holes in the index wheel was too deep. I solved the problem by taping the hole so it was not so deep.

I just went through re-grooving 3 reel stop plates for a machine that had the wrong ones in it, it didn't occur to me that this could be the problem. And now that you mention it there is an adjustment that will slightly move the entire wiper blade up, down, back & forward also. It may be that one arm is just slightly out of adjustment and might be able to get it so it will make contact on all pins without having to do anything else. That would be revealed when the conductivity test across the wiper blades was done. Also a visual check with a small flashlight to see if the wipers are directly over the pins or off the the side will tell if that arm adjustment is possible. The adjustment is the 2 screws that hold the arm in place.

[essmeier]

So far, I haven't been able to find anything that appears to be wrong.  The wipers are clean and making good contact on both the reel boards and the payout board on the hopper.  I can't find any loose wires.  Both upper and lower beau plugs seem to be OK.  I haven't had time to do any serious continuity testing, but other than that, I've checked everything mentioned so far including the entire list of specific 3 plum issues I posted earlier.

I'm sure it's something relatively simple, as everything else works correctly, but so far, it's eluding me.

Charlie

[essmeier]

While I've yet to find the plum problem, I have managed to create some more trouble.  My "winner paid" light isn't working anymore. 

I've found the switch for the "winner paid" light as shown in this post: http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=27065.msg208814#msg208814

...but I'm not sure how it should be adjusted to work properly.  As I understand it, if I pull the hopper out and examine the switch after a loss, it should be open.  If I have a winner, the switch should be closed.  I have it adjusted that way, but the "winner paid" light still isn't working.  Is there another switch that might affect this?

Oddly enough, while mucking around with the machine today, it paid on three plums...once.  I couldn't get it to do it again.

Charlie

[The Fatman]

There is a good chance you have either a pitted or tarnished switch. But more than that, the Beau plug for that connection might not be making good contact. Use the meter and check for continuity for all points of the circut. Be sure to check it at the solder connection and not on the swtch blade because that can push them together and give you a false reading. If you have jumpers, that will help you check with the unit outside of the cabinet.
Dave F

[OldReno]

The bally 5 line criss cross fruit reel was probably Bally's hardest machine to build a reasonable pay structure with.
They were limited by reel depth cuts, pays above and below symbols, and a massive wiring job on the reel boards.
If you look at your boards you will see just how much stuff they had to 'stuff' in there.
And this also limited the ability of management to change the odds on the fruit reels.
I am certain that the original designers had serious mental problems in their later years...many of them probably were institutionalized.
As in the case of the bars machines ( 1bar, 2 bar, and triple bars on the same reels), Bally had to wire in a bars match relay, that would differentiate the kinds of bar pays.  (matching versus mixed bars)
I do believe they did the same thing for the 5 line XX fruit reels, on the plum combinations which I think you have.
When you finally give up after trying all the other suggestions here, try setting up a plum combination, and then reach back and push down the armature on the relay which you probably will find on the right side of your 3rd reel board.  With plums on the payline, and pushing down on this relay, I think it may pay for plums for you.  Try this on all 5 lines.
My memory suggests that yes, they did put in a plums relay, similar to the bars match relay found on other machines.
But then, my memory often is false.
Also, because of the complexity and number of cuts on the reels, it is not impossible for them to go out of alignment.
Follow the links I have suggested, to make sure they are aligned right.  You can also tug or pull down on each of the reels with a pay on them, to see if that initiates a pay.  Often doing that will show you alignment problems.  However, do not loosen the alignment bolts until you are certain that that is the problem.
Pics would be real helpful...

[essmeier]

I can certainly provide pix.  I set the machine for 3 plums on the center payline.  Here are photos of the payboard on the hopper and the wipers on the reel unit.

If I need to provide anything else, let me know.

Charlie

[The Fatman]

On your #4 pic... I see that the wiper is all the way to the end. .. I am thinking that the strips are out of alignment with the index disk. I could be wrong and I hope that OldReno will cime in on this. He is the Guru when it comes to these machines.
DAve

[zinda]

On your #4 pic... I see that the wiper is all the way to the end. .. I am thinking that the strips are out of alignment with the index disk. I could be wrong and I hope that OldReno will cime in on this. He is the Guru when it comes to these machines.
DAve

That's exactly what I saw also, I had to go back and read if he had the payline set to plums or not. Usually the deepest cuts are for the highest paid but who knows on this model, the double stacked wiper board wiring really made think that I'm glad I'm not the one who has to find the problem on this machine!

Also visible on that same #1 reel is the wear path across the pins, looks like they are just barely making contact on them all. running dangerously close to the bottom and could use a little nudging up and then tweak the top wiper leaf blade down so it matches the others and runs on center of the pins.
Of course be careful of how much you move it since the bottom pins are smaller and in a slightly different path if moved to much they may run off at the ends. Most boards won't be using those very bottom pins but more coins makes for more pins used.
 I just loosen the screws very slightly and keep it tight on the arm making it kind of hard to move it, this way it's not like you are starting from scratch every time. Although they are not hard to center even from scratch it's just quicker to keep them snugged so they will not slip when you do a test swipe while holding it with your hand.

Plus that's the easy one to adjust, the others require a little bit more work or a special wrench to loosen them without removing the boards in front of them.

[essmeier]

I'll check the wipers on the #1 reel again, but AFAIK, they're making good contact.  As zinda pointed out, adjusting #1 is the easy one.  Keep in mind that with the exception of plums, everything pays as it's supposed to, including the 7-7-7, which correctly pays 200 coins, so I don't think, the index discs are misadjusted.  I even got the plums to pay correctly the other day, though it only did it once and I wasn't able to get it to do it again.  I'm certain that whatever the problem might be, it's a simple one...if I can find it.

Could be wrong; slots aren't my thing.  I mostly work with electromechanical pinballs.  Got a lot of those; I have one slot, and I'll freely admit that I'm out of my element on this.  It's like taking everything that's in a pinball and cramming it into a box the size of a microwave oven.

I do have a copy of Geddes' Bally book on the way; I'm hoping that will enlighten me some more.

Charlie

[The Fatman]

Is there a chance the strips are out of position on their reels an the index disk doesnt line up with the proper fruit on the Reels. hell I dont know... I make pottey for a living and sell slots for a whole lot of fun. .... hope it helps. I have a machine here and their loose and  slide on the reels.

[essmeier]

Is there a chance the strips are out of position on their reels an the index disk doesnt line up with the proper fruit on the Reels.

Unlikely, since:

1. Everything else pays correctly.
2. It used to pay on plums, too, but quit working properly after a few months of non-use.

I'll have some free time tonight; I'll pull the reel unit out and check out a few of the suggestions above.

Charlie

[OldReno]

I just hate it when I post and my reply gets lost and I have to do it over again.  Oh well, I need better internet connectivity, but that's something I can't fix right now.
If you have wires on the BACK of your #1 reel in position #1 (your deepest cut), then you are probably aligned OK[size=78%] [/size][/size][size=78%]If the #1 position is not wired, then you are out of alignment.[/size][/size][size=78%], and the problem will most likely be in your hopper.[/size]
Check to make sure your 14 coin pay tab is wired in and the wire is not broken off at the solder point.  That is the most likely cause of your pay problem I would think.
YOu can meter it on ohms from the payboard to the hopper plug 14 coin pay wire to be sure you have good contact.  Also you can check it from the Feed wire (93) from your hopper plug, back to the 14 coin pay wire on your hopper plug for a complete check.