Identify and No Payout Whatsoever

[mwade109]

Greetings all... I came across this EM machine and of course if has no plate anywhere to identify what model it may be.  The game plays great but does not payout on any wins and the win meter never displays anything but zeros. I looked at the other 'not paying correctly' posts people have here but because I don't know the identity I really cant go by those.  Hopefully someone can get me pointed in the right direction. The oldest Bally's I have worked on was the E1000's & 2000's  but this machine looks like maybe it is a handful.
Thanks!

[wolftalk]

it's written in black sharpie on the reel wiper boards.

looks like 1088-something.  Maybe 1088-31?

some paperwork for the 1088-31 is on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

the payout counter diagram is probably w-923-468.  You can find that in the 1088/ folder above.

if you can read the codes stamped onto the slotted metal reel index discs, I probably have docs for the discs and reel tapes, but those aren't often needed.

referring to the schem, the goal is to complete a circuit from wire 90 (center payline schem H17) thru the reel wipers to the appropriate trace on the payout counter disc.  The wipers on the payout counter complete the circuit to the payout relay and break the circuit when the correct number of coins have been paid.

typical problems are cruddy reel wiper boards or payout counter disc, poor wiper contact to the plates, and plug connection issues.

yell if ya need more info.

[DavidLee]

Could be someone inscribed the model number on one of the assemblies.
Also the the three wiper boards might have labels and or have been identified too the model.
The machine looks to be modified slightly by a second party supplier.

As Wolf mentioned the all grey 90 wire feeds into the third wiper board.
Set up all single bars on on the pay line, then check the wiper arms for alignment.
They should all be in the same position. Check for bent finger and or loose wiper arms.

At this point there should be continuity from the 90 all the way across the boards.
By connecting one side of a meter to the 90 wire and dragging the other over the beau plug pins
continuity should be achieved. Most likely the plug pins on the left side looking from the back
is the one used. But check both. This can be done on any winning combination.

[mwade109]

So... back to this machine after life got in the way.  I will try the gray wire continuity shortly.  The machine works great if you don't want any payout.  Anyone else with any ideas on this non-paying machine?

Oh, and it is written 1088-31
-mike

[mwade109]

I get continuity from what I see as the only solid gray wire.  As in the pictures, I get continuity between the 1st and 3rd reels, on the 2nd pin on the bottom row and on the large pin on the connector.  The 2nd reel does not get anything but it also does not have a gray wire going to that position (it has a yellow I believe).

Also, I am not a schematic reader. very limited on that.

Could be someone inscribed the model number on one of the assemblies.
Also the the three wiper boards might have labels and or have been identified too the model.
The machine looks to be modified slightly by a second party supplier.

As Wolf mentioned the all grey 90 wire feeds into the third wiper board.
Set up all single bars on on the pay line, then check the wiper arms for alignment.
They should all be in the same position. Check for bent finger and or loose wiper arms.

At this point there should be continuity from the 90 all the way across the boards.
By connecting one side of a meter to the 90 wire and dragging the other over the beau plug pins
continuity should be achieved. Most likely the plug pins on the left side looking from the back
is the one used. But check both. This can be done on any winning combination.

[Pinballwizard55]

Check your contacts on the coin relay and also the contacts on the handle release mechanism located above the handle box.

[wolftalk]

do you have a jumper wire with alligator clips?

if yes, you can do the following tests with a single cherry on the pay line:

1] resistance check -  clip jumper onto the grey wire 90 on reel 1 or 3 and shove the reel back into the game.  Attach one meter probe to the other end of the jumper and put other probe on the yellow wire 30 on the coin switch.  You should get almost zero ohms.   If not, the only things left besides what pinwiz said are coin unit wipers (not likely) or plug connections

2] turn on the machine and touch the end of the jumper wire to the yellow wire 30 on the coin switch (connect wire 90 to 30).  Does the game pay?  If not, your problem is either in the reels or the payout counter.  One thing to check is whether the payout counter is reset.  You familiar with that unit?

3] if [2] failed, you can narrow things down by moving the jumper on the reels to red/yellow wire 13 which is the top rivet above wire 90 on the wiper board.  Shove reels back in and touch other end of jumper to yellow wire 30.  If still no pay, the problem is probably on the payout counter, tho plug connections could also do it.

by "no pay", I mean the payout relay is not powering, which in turn should turn on the hopper motor.

[DavidLee]

Check the payout relay on the back left corner of the hopper.
The circuit for the motor passes through that switch.
In most cases it’s the blue/white wires, but could be a solid green and solid black.
Inspect the complete switch for broken wires, missing spring and continuity with the opposing contacts.

If the motor fails to run the machine won’t payoff.

[mwade109]

Thanks for the suggestions, I will be out there trying things today and tomorrow.
Wolftalk, No I am not familiar with the payout counter but feel I will be soon. " One thing to check is whether the payout counter is reset.  You familiar with that unit?"

[mwade109]

Not quite sure if this is what you were talking about but I decided to take this out and bench test the switch.  Can you tell me, what this switch is for, what/when should the red light come on?

I am guessing it tells the machine if the hopper is installed but I could be entirely wrong.  The switch itself has continuity between the two contact with the wires all the time.  Also, the other contact never gets continuity when I push the button so I am assuming that this switch is bad.

Can you explain how this works and if I can take one of the wires off of the switch to break the circuit as it would be if the button was pressed and try running some coins through it?

Check the payout relay on the back left corner of the hopper.
The circuit for the motor passes through that switch.
In most cases it’s the blue/white wires, but could be a solid green and solid black.
Inspect the complete switch for broken wires, missing spring and continuity with the opposing contacts.

If the motor fails to run the machine won’t payoff.

[wolftalk]

that's the safety timer unit.  It's job is to basically monitor the payout counter and make sure it's stepping up when coins are ejecting the machine.

the goal is preventing "runaway payout" and "dumping the hopper".

while the hopper motor is running, the safety timer motor also runs.  If it runs long enough without getting breifly disconnected/reset by a payout counter microswitch, it opens a switch and kills all power to the machine and the red neon light turns on.

to recover, you have to power cycle the machine or push on the bar under the hopper that pushes the white button in.

the safety time cannot prevent payout from starting, so that's not your issue.

the payout counter is to the right of the transformer.  Push in the step-up solenoid plunger (green arrow below) and let go.  The wipers (red arrow) should rotate a little counter clockwise.

repeat the stepping a few times and the wipers should become more visible (contacts around 4:00 on the disc).  Then with everything back in the game spin the reels and verify the wipers have reset back to around the 6:00 position.

if that's good, it would be useful to know the m-645-xxx number that's in the top/back corner of the unit in the picture.  You can also unscrew the unit frame from the baseplate and flip it out so you can see the contact plate and access the wires along the bottom, then an ohmeter or voltmeter could be attached to allow more tests.

did post #6 make sense?

tmi (more than the above)
------------------------------

your reels have 1088-31 marked on them, but the cabinet is a "lowboy" style with no top compartment.  That makes the cabinet something like a model 1113.  A 1088-31 reel mech in a 1113 cabinet would usually mean some rewiring at the plug connections would be needed.  Assume the machine worked (vs someone just stuffed a reel mech that fit into a cabinet to sell it and it never worked).

the basic payout circuit for a cherry win on reel 1 with one coin played is highlighted below.  The plug connections aren't shown.  You can attach a jumper wire to any place along the yellow highlight and touch the other end to yellow wire (30) on the coin switch and the payout relay should power, which turns on the hopper motor and coins spit out.

the machine has a hopper cutoff relay - probably an "ice cube" relay on the hopper with a capacitor, resistor and diodes attached.  If that doesn't power and stay powered when you push the button at the top/right of the door opening or spin the reels, the game won't pay.  If you want to remove the hopper cutoff relay from the circuit for testing, remove the ice cube relay.  You can either jumper the orange to the red/blue wire on the relay socket or jumper the red/blue wire on the payout relay coil (on the back of the hopper) to the orange wire anyplace handy ... like the 50V fuse.

the pictures in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/1088/pics/ may help you identify parts.  I don't have pictures of a 1113, so if you'd care to email to slotpics@cdyn.com the highest possible resolution pics - entire sides/tops/bottoms of stuff like the reels, hopper, inside cabinet, etc. - I'll add them to https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ someplace ... we'd need to try and figure out what your machine is.

[mwade109]

1:  Do you mean connecting to the microswitch under the coin mech, yellow wire?  If so, I am reading 5.8 ohms.
2:  No difference
3:  No difference

Pertaining to reply #10
I pushed in the step up solenoid plunger and it DID reset back to 6:00
So after doing that a few times I hit the three double bars and it went into action, spewing coins all over the place (door was open), jackpot bell ringing like crazy!
I wasn't ready for that!
Although I don't believe it payed out the correct amount but at least there was some action.  I played some more and found that most winning combinations or single cherry would not pay but if I pushed the step up plunger it would pay the single or two cherry wins, properly.  I got the two bells and bar in the picture and it paid 14 (after pushing the plunger) but I think it should have been 20.

So I guess it isnt that it is not paying, it is capable but needs help on some of the wins.

Also, I did not find any markings up near the top anywhere pertaining to any model number

do you have a jumper wire with alligator clips?

if yes, you can do the following tests with a single cherry on the pay line:

1] resistance check -  clip jumper onto the grey wire 90 on reel 1 or 3 and shove the reel back into the game.  Attach one meter probe to the other end of the jumper and put other probe on the yellow wire 30 on the coin switch.  You should get almost zero ohms.   If not, the only things left besides what pinwiz said are coin unit wipers (not likely) or plug connections

2] turn on the machine and touch the end of the jumper wire to the yellow wire 30 on the coin switch (connect wire 90 to 30).  Does the game pay?  If not, your problem is either in the reels or the payout counter.  One thing to check is whether the payout counter is reset.  You familiar with that unit?

3] if [2] failed, you can narrow things down by moving the jumper on the reels to red/yellow wire 13 which is the top rivet above wire 90 on the wiper board.  Shove reels back in and touch other end of jumper to yellow wire 30.  If still no pay, the problem is probably on the payout counter, tho plug connections could also do it.

by "no pay", I mean the payout relay is not powering, which in turn should turn on the hopper motor.

[wolftalk]

by moving the payout counter wipers and resetting, you've scrubbed the printed circuit traces and wiper contact connection a bit, which will somewhat self-clean it.

you'll probably want to unscrew the payout counter so you can flip it around, and if there's black crud on the traces, clean if off with a scrub pad, synthetic steel wool, or something similarly not abrasive. 

you can use your finger to manually spin the wipers so you can clean under where the wipers are currently sitting.  If the traces under the spiral cam won't clean easily, you'll have to remove the +-shaped outboard carriage and the spiral cam.  If you do that, the torsion spring tension on the ratchet will unwind and you'll need to put a couple of turns of tension on when the wipers are reset after reassembly

the m-645-xxx number is etched in the copper same as the payout traces.

[mwade109]

Update, I have just now been able to get back to it,  I had cleaned the contacts and the circuit board and it is not much better.  I'll give anything a try at this point before I just go ahead and part it out, need the room.  Currently it DOES pay out correctly on some wins of 20 or more,  it will pay out two coins if I get a cherry on the third reel, it will not payout if I get a cherry on the first reel until I push in the solenoid plunger, then it pays out.  Any ideas on this?

I like to get them running right before I part it out.  This one needs a belly glass so I figured I will part it anyway, unless I can get it going correctly AND get a affordable belly glass for it. 

Any ideas are appreciated